Heimerdinger and Zyra

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Dragorune

Senior Member

28-07-2012

Hey everybody I love playing Heimerdinger and certainly think Zyra is an awesome champion as well, however, heimerdinger and especially his turrets feel weak compared to Zyra, not by much, but certainly enough to notice it.

Lets compare heimerdinger's main ability his turrets:

Quote:
H-28G Evolution Turret
(Active): Heimerdinger constructs a Turret with 260 + (15 level) health that fires at nearby enemies, dealing magic damage (half damage to towers and inhibitors). Heimerdinger stores enough parts for a new turret every 25 seconds (affected by cooldown reduction). Turrets attack 50% faster for the first 6 seconds after placement. Turrets disappear automatically when Heimerdinger dies. Turrets receive upgrades and transform with every ability rank.
Cooldown: 1 second
Range: 250
Turret range: 525
Turret attack speed: 1.25
Sight Diameter: 625
Cost: 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110 mana
Magic Damage: 30 / 38 / 46 / 54 / 62 (+0.2 per ability power)

Rank 1: Yellow turret.
Rank 2: Green turret: reduces armor & magic resist by 1 for two seconds every hit (max. 50).
Rank 3: Green turrets: max turrets increased to 2.
Rank 4: Green turrets: gain an additional 125 health.
Rank 5: Red turrets: now apply 50% splash damage.
Now lets look at Zyra's plants:
Quote:
Deadly Bloom
(Active): Thorns shoot from the ground, dealing magic damage to enemies within the area.
Cost: 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 / 95 mana
Cooldown: 7 / 6.5 / 6 / 5.5 / 5 seconds

Magic Damage: 75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 (+0.6 per ability power)

Rampant Growth: If Deadly Bloom hits a seed, a Thorn Spitter grows. Thorn Spitter attacks with long range and deals magic damage.
Duration: 10 seconds
Magic Damage: 26 + (6 level) + (0.24 per ability power)
Attack Speed 0.800
Range ???

Rampant Growth
(Passive): Grants bonus cooldown reduction
Cooldown Reduction: 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 / 20 %
(Active): Plants a seed lasting 30 seconds. If an enemy champion steps on a seed, it will be destroyed but they will be revealed for 2 seconds.
Zyra periodically stores seeds and she can hold up to 2 seeds at any given time. Zyra cannot plant any more than 4 plants at a time.
Cast spells on seeds to grow plants. Plant damage is based on Zyra's level. Extra plants striking the same target deal 25% less damage.

Seeds are immune to being stepped on for ??? seconds after being planted.

Seed Recharge Time: 17 / 16 / 15 / 14 / 13 seconds

Cost: 1 seed
No Cooldown
So lets see, Zyra's plants deal 26 + (6 level) base damage and heimer's turrets deal 30 / 38 / 46 / 54 / 62
this means lvl 1 Zyra has 32 base damage on the plants at lvl 6 Zyra's plants have already 62 base damage, while as heimerdinger you can't even have your turrets at skill lvl 5 yet.
at lvl 18 Zyra's plants have 134 base damage, that is TWO times as much as heimerdinger's turrets have. O.o (and they even have a better AP ratio)

That to me just seems to much, no way how you look at it.

Now a lot of people will say that Zyra's plants are way easier to destroy, okay well here's the deal, it's actually the opposite especially for any normal mid lane.

Most mid laners are mages, or at least not auto-attack champion, thus it being very slow for them to destroy those plants, since most ability aren't single target or on a longer CD.

While Heimer's turrets only have 275 till 530 HP (+125), which is normally bursted with one decent skill and one auto-attack, had it not been that you can have 2 turrets heimer would have been useless (at the moment he isn't ).

But more importantly I've noticed Zyra's thorn spitters have a way bigger range that Heimer's turrets, his turrets only have a range of 525 which is outranged by almost all ranged attack, which makes them even easier to destroy especially in comparison to Zyra's plants.

A few other very important things are, but the recharges are affected by CDR, but heimerdingers is way longer it's 25 seconds while Zyra's is only 17/16/15/14/13 seconds. To top it off you can already directly plant 2 or 3 seeds from the start, while Heimerdinger has to lvl his ability.
Even funnier is the fact that placing seeds has no CD and placing turrets has a 1 second CD, which can be a lot.
But the best part of all is Zyra can have up to 4 plants while Heimerdinger can only have 2 turrets.

Now, ofcourse Zyra's plants have some disadvantages compared to heimer turrets but those are minimal, those plants lasting 10 seconds is more than enough for them to clear the wave or kill an enemy champion, it almost isn't a down when considering they recharge so fast.

Plants attacking the same target deal 25% less damage, considering you can have 3 or four, this is laughable, even more so considering the base damage and looking at the AP ratio, well:
Heimer has a 0.2 ratio
Zyra has a 0.24 ratio,
considering only 2 turrets and 2 plants, heimer has a 0.4 ratio, and zyra has a 0.42 ratio.
Starting form 3 plants zyra has the same average AP ratio as Heimer's turrets have.

Oh and I almost forgot 1 last thing, the passive of rampant growth grants the same CDR as the passive of Heimer's ult O.o.


So I think and hope I've proven my point, heimerdinger needs a little buff or Zyra needs a little nerf, Imo Heimerdinger doesn't need that much of a buff, by example increasing the range on his turrets, making them attack enemies you auto-attacked just as Zyra's plants do and making his turrets scale of Heimer's HP should do the trick I think.

Well tell me what you think should happen and if you have any ideas for improvement balance wise.

If you agree thumbs up are appreciated


UPDATE:
Well it seems Riot is apparently working on Heimerdinger, probably gonna give him a good rework.

It seems he's gonna get some more harassment power and a lower recharge time on his turrets.

However all this is still a lot of speculation and can still change, but it does none the less show that they are working on him and the direction they are taken him looks promising to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wernom View Post
More stuff about it:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rPRtaXodKE...0heimerptr.jpg
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...4#post27021414 (prove they're working on him)

Thanks very much for reading this big wall of text and I hope I give you some food for thought


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Justfordead

Senior Member

28-07-2012

fioras autoattacks are dealing more damage than leonas.

Better buff Leona or nerf Fiora, better remove all Champions and create a Meta Champion.


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Dragorune

Senior Member

28-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justfordead View Post
fioras autoattacks are dealing more damage than leonas.

Better buff Leona or nerf Fiora, better remove all Champions and create a Meta Champion.
Omg, be constructive and don't troll like that, seriously this 2 abilities are their main abilities, just play both and you'll notice.

also both are in the same category, both of them are mages and pushers.

You comparison is just ridiculous, give a fair answer or go troll someone else.


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Justfordead

Senior Member

28-07-2012

played both, why should both abilites are the same?


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Dragorune

Senior Member

28-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justfordead View Post
played both, why should both abilites are the same?
I assume you mean why both abilities should be the same.

Well they don't have they be the same, I'm not saying that, it's just Zyra as a whole, especially considering these 2 abilities is just noticeably stronger than Heimer, I'm not saying that either of them needs a huge buff or nerf just a small one to put them on equall footing, champions are supposed to be balanced.

The following simple small buffs/improvements should do the trick.
Increasing the range on his turrets.
Making them attack enemies you auto-attacked just as Zyra's plants do. (this just simply allows you to better controll your turrets)
Making his turrets scale of Heimer's HP.


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Tepyollotl

Senior Member

28-07-2012

yeah i think the same way. atm absolutly no reason to pick heimer over zyra.
Zyra is just overall stronger them him


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Dragorune

Senior Member

28-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tepyollotl View Post
yeah i think the same way. atm absolutly no reason to pick heimer over zyra.
Zyra is just overall stronger them him
thanks for the support

(thumbs up help to make Riot notice )


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Dun Baloo

Senior Member

28-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tepyollotl View Post
yeah i think the same way. atm absolutly no reason to pick heimer over any mage.
Any mage is just overall stronger them him
Fixed.

You talk about Zyra because she has a turret-like ability, but the problem is not Zyra being better than Heimer. The problem is Heimer being totally outdated, and Riot not doing anything to him until his rework is finished.

So all you have to do is wait for the rework. Riot has said they were working on it, I believe. But Zyra coming out didn't make Heimer more unviable than he already was.


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Evil Squidward

Senior Member

28-07-2012

heimer and zyra are two different characters.. heimer rewards tactical positioning, zoneing and kiteing. zyra is a little simpler and more about using smartcasting. dump all spells into a teamfight for a quadra kill with zyra but to do the same with heimer is more about deflecting the aggro you draw with the stun/blind slow ect. and letting the rockets do the work.

sure zyra is a little stronger vs mages and in teamfights, but heimer is good against a lot of counter-mage picks. he dont care if hes silenced or being chased and running is no shame for the H-man whereas if zyra is pushed she has to either run or stop and cast.


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Tepyollotl

Senior Member

28-07-2012

of course heimer needed a rework for a long time now, but why releasing a new hero with kinda stronger towers, better burst and better abilities for a team fight before giving heimer his rework?
I think that players that liked heimer because of his turrents, (kinda the only thing that made him unique), will go with zyra now.
Yeah he was rarely played before, but now the only reason left to play him is beacuse of emotional reasons (maybe you just like his big brain ).
Im really looking forward for his rework because atm his skills are just too similar to zyras, even if in some points in playstyle they are still different.
I would have loved to see some of zyras spells on heimer (just with mechanical things and not plants) as a rework instead of releasing her.