Nidalee as a support, my point of view on this.

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Lullaby

Senior Member

21-04-2012

To me, this seems like a solid lane. Nidalee has a rather strong heal, with an AS Steroid tied to it. She has the traps for "wards" and her spears bring great harass to the lane. In cat form, she does A LOT of damage.

So, let's go more in to detail with the abilities.


Human Form

Javelin Toss:

Nidalee throws out a skill shot spear that deals damage to the first enemy it hits. Scales with 0.65 of AP, and increases in damage the further away Nidalee is from the target the spear lands on, up to 250% of damage (Thus 1.625 AP ratio at max range)

Base damage goes 55/95/140/185/230 and mana cost is 50/60/70/80/90

A rather cheap spell for the amount of damage it deals. Even just the base damage is huge since the range increases it. At rank 1 the base damage from max range is 138, and at rank 5 the max damage is 575. This brings a ton of harass to the lane. If you feel you're safe without healing, you can max this first and take dominance over the lane really early on. Several times I've been zoning people at level 1 because they can't take harass from my constant spears anymore.


Bushwhack

Nidalee lays down a trap, that activates when an enemy steps on it. Deals magic damage and gives vision for 12 seconds, as well as reducing armor and magic resistance for the duration. Scales with 0.4 of your ability power.

Damage for this is 80/125/170/215/260 over 2 seconds, and it shreds 20%/25%/30%/35%/40% armor and magic resist for the 12 second duration.

Mana cost is 60/75/90/105/120

The trap lasts for 4 minutes on the ground, there can be as many traps as time lets you have on the field.

So, this basically gives you "wards" on the enemy bush as well as places such as entrance to the dragon, to enemy jungle and the river. These are *unreliable* because the enemy needs to step on it before you get vision of the area, but when placed on the most popular pathways and bushes you can guarantee to land most of them. Usually the Tri-Brush is an excellent place to put down these, with 2 or 3 you can completely close out the usage of the brush without you knowing it. Also, if you start with this spell at level 1, you can safeguard entrances to your jungle early on. Say your jungler goes for blue, you can "ward up" entrances to the red jungle, and go back home and get to the lane full mana with extra help to your jungler. In lane these can be used to harass if you land them behind the enemy carry/support and push them towards the traps. This is unreliable but can work to some extent. Also this trap reduces the effectiveness of some supports like Alistar who rely on being able to get closer by using their own brush. You can land a trap there and you know when he's around.


Primal Surge

Nidalee heals her target and gives that target attack speed for 7 seconds. Scales with 0.7 of your ability power.

The base heal amount is 50/85/120/155/190, so it's not that great compared to someone like Soraka, however this also has a much shorter cooldown. Soraka's heal has a base cooldown of 20 seconds, whereas Nidalee only has 10 seconds. Now, unlike Soraka's heal that gives a significant amount of armor, Nidalee's heal gives 20%/30%/40%/50%/60% attack speed.

This is a fairly strong heal, with the added component of attack speed which gives you a lot of potential to destroy towers and get objectives together with your team. If you're with Graves, he doesn't necessarily need any attack speed items, he can just go for Infinity Edge and Bloodthirster early on for maximum damage, since you're going to give him Phantom Dancer's worth of Attack Speed. Of course, getting the Phantom Dancer isn't a bad idea either, since you'll go well above attack speed of 2 with it, and you get a lot more critical chance.


Cat Form

Nidalee gets 10/20/30 bonus armor and magic resistance, and she gets bonus 20 movement speed.

Takedown

Nidalee empowers her next attack to deal bonus damage, dealing more damage the lower your enemy is, up to a maximum of 300% damage.

Base damage is 40/70/100 + AD (ranks up only with ranks on your ultimate) and does not cost mana.

This will deal a huge burst of damage to targets who have already taken some damage. Base damage + AD + % boost = a lot of damage. At level 6, you'll have around 77 AD. So, you'll do 117 damage when you hit a target full on HP, but if they're around 50%, you'll do about 250 damage. This most definitely is a strong damage dealer for a support.


Pounce

Nidalee jumps forward a short distance, dealing damage around the area she lands on. Scales with 0.4 of your AP.

Base damage is 125/175/225 (Again, ranks only with ultimate) and like takedown, does not cost mana.

This ability does so much for you. It allows you to escape ganks, allows you to chase people, and it deals damage. Can be used to harass, however since it does deal AOE damage you should be careful as to not take your AD carry's CS. The damage on this is nice, 125 at rank 1 with a really short cooldown. (3.5 base cooldown) Not many supports have this strong of a harassment spell.


Swipe

Nidalee claws at her enemies, dealing damage in a cone in front of her. Scales with 0.4 of your AP

Base damage is 150/225/300, no mana cost (Ranks with ultimate)

Deals a heavy amount of damage, just like Pounce. Can be used in a "combo" together with Pounce to deal huge amounts of damage, and then fall back instantly.



So, what did we get out of her abilities? She does A LOT of damage for a support. She brings a nice bit of objective control due to this fact. Attack Speed for the AD carry, damage from cat form and the assistance of the traps giving vision on enemies that step on them. With her, Dragon and Baron both go down very fast.

On lane, her harass is incredibly good. She does not bring any CC, but my god does she bring damage. Together with Graves, Nidalee does a lot of work on the enemy AD carry and the support. After 6 she can harass for a ton of damage, and fall back easily due to her Pounce. She also is hard to gank due to the ability of placing traps to the Tri-Brush and having the Pounce together with the Passive to escape.

She's offers a huge amount of lane control very early on, and later on she becomes a strong walking force of utility with her attack speed steroid, traps and spear poke.

There are a few ways to go on about playing Nidalee as a support. You start off like any support would, with wards and a Faerie Charm. You build a Philo Stone and a Kage's Lucky Pick, with the optional Heart of Gold. (I know many prefer HoG over Pick, but I like the AP it gives me)

Then you can spread out one of two main ways. Go and be a regular support, with items like Aegis of the Legion, Zeke's Herald and Shurelia's Reverie. OR, you can go and build yourself AP with items like Deathfire Grasp and Rabadon's Deathcap. I myself like the AP route, but the normal support way might be considered to be stronger.

No matter which route you decide to go, you should never go away from the fact that you're a support, so you're your teams main source of wards. NEVER forget that. Also Nidalee with Oracles early on is quite strong, since you have a lot of mobility to escape sticky situations.


For runes I'd pick up gold per 10 for Quintessences and Seals. I would pick up Magic Penetration for Marks and mana regen for Glyphs.

I know this seems dangerous, because you get no armor, but I think this is a strong way to go. You want the gold per 10 runes because you're a support, you won't be doing much of the last hitting.
You want the magic penetration runes because a big part of your role as a support is the damage you offer, so you need to capitalize that. And mana regen runes?
I like to spam the spears early on for lane dominance, so I like the way the mana regen helps me with that. Also, Nidalee doesn't really need magic resist runes,
because she's one of the few who actually have magic resist per level from base stats. 0.75 per level.

When to pick Nidalee? I don't think Nidalee works that well with most of the AD carries. I think she's really strong with Graves, and she works well with Tristana and Miss Fortune as well.
Since they have their own AS steroids, and you just help to build that along. I can see her working working with someone like Kog'Maw as well,
since Kog'Maw has a lot of potential to push the enemies out from the lane. Other AD carries I don't think she works that well with, and other supports work wonderfully with them,
so that's not a good point to pick Nidalee at.

I also don't think she works that well against someone like Alistar support, since you can't help your AD carry with the Alistar being on his face, unless you get to harass him down beforehand. I also don't think Nidalee is that great against some super aggressive junglers for the same reason.


When to pick Nidalee? When the enemy team seems to have a passive lane. Something like Ashe + Soraka. They can't do anything to you, and you can zone them out easily.
Soraka will eventually run out of mana, and Ashe doesn't have the damage to deal with you and Graves. Against a passive lane such as this, you can just poke and zone them out really easily.
Don't be expecting many kills though, I don't view Nidalee + Graves as a kill lane, as much as I view it as an objective lane and deny lane.
You have amazing potential to push the enemy away from your lane, and you have amazing potential to get dragons and barons early on, but you lack any CC to actually guarantee kills early on.
This being said, your poke and zoning capabilities can give you a lot of kills early on, and if not just kills you can get ahead of your enemies and have your AD become such a beast that they just can't do anything but die.


Now, I would like to hear your opinions on this.


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Malta BabY

Senior Member

21-04-2012

Stopped reading at "Nidalee as a support"


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TheBurden

Senior Member

21-04-2012

Nidalee is similar to kayle support, for example, the low levels - Amazing.
After laning phase - Unless you get 5+ kills in lane, you're useless.
So you would need to get some farm in lane, putting your AD behind.

In short - Good early, horrible mid/late.


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tjallebong

Senior Member

21-04-2012

I sooooo hate picking an AD carry, afterwards the guy who said he'll support picks Nidalee.. /facepalm


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Triarii

Senior Member

21-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBurden View Post
Nidalee is similar to kayle support, for example, the low levels - Amazing.
After laning phase - Unless you get 5+ kills in lane, you're useless.
So you would need to get some farm in lane, putting your AD behind.

In short - Good early, horrible mid/late.
Kayle support is better then nid support if you ask me.

Nid offer nothing at all to protect the ad in teamfights, other then a weak heal, at least kayle can slow, heal and make your ad invulnerable to damage, that's a huge bonus to have in teamfights, nidalee is utterly worthless as support other then mediocre lane poking.


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Padsoldier

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Senior Member

21-04-2012

You forgot about her heal, that it costs #!>@tons of mana (less than 1:1 heal:mana ratio at lvl 1), especially if you max it first (140 manacost for 10s CD makes you incredibly mana dependant, so you either can't heal or you can't spear-poke+trap).
She is only an APspearbot or AD/bruiser top since the nerfs she received (I know they were ages ago - like 6 months or so - but I'm still mad at Riot for them), because her heal got toned down too much...


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Lullaby

Senior Member

21-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padsoldier View Post
You forgot about her heal, that it costs #!>@tons of mana (less than 1:1 heal:mana ratio at lvl 1), especially if you max it first (140 manacost for 10s CD makes you incredibly mana dependant, so you either can't heal or you can't spear-poke+trap).
She is only an APspearbot or AD/bruiser top since the nerfs she received (I know they were ages ago - like 6 months or so - but I'm still mad at Riot for them), because her heal got toned down too much...
Soraka's Heal costs 200 at max rank, and it doesn't bring any offensive qualities like Nidalee's heal does.

Sure, the HP/Mana ratio is better on Soraka heal, however you get more HP from Nidalee heal, than you'd get from Soraka heal over time. Nidalee heals for 190 per 10 sec, Soraka heals 350 per 20sec. Then, there's the AP ratio. While Soraka's Heal has 0.45 AP ratio, Nidalee has 0.7 so even the slightest amount of AP gives a significantly bigger boost to Nidalee than it does for Soraka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBurden View Post
Nidalee is similar to kayle support, for example, the low levels - Amazing.
After laning phase - Unless you get 5+ kills in lane, you're useless.
So you would need to get some farm in lane, putting your AD behind.

In short - Good early, horrible mid/late.
This is not true. Nidalee still brings a lot of poke and damage mid game, and she still offers a lot of objective control and harass late game.
Especially since you can build her AP as a support without hindering your capabilities to support on lane.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Triarii View Post
Kayle support is better then nid support if you ask me.

Nid offer nothing at all to protect the ad in teamfights, other then a weak heal, at least kayle can slow, heal and make your ad invulnerable to damage, that's a huge bonus to have in teamfights, nidalee is utterly worthless as support other then mediocre lane poking.
Uhm... Medicore lane poking? Which planet are you from?

Nidalee's harass is top tier on lane. I'm fairly certain she wins any other support in harass damage capabilities.

Yes, she doesn't offer safety to her AD carry, however she allows for objectives to go down way way faster than Kayle would. If you'd read my post you'd know I've covered this already.


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Petekes

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21-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyor0n View Post
Soraka's Heal costs 200 at max rank, and it doesn't bring any offensive qualities like Nidalee's heal does.

Sure, the HP/Mana ratio is better on Soraka heal, however you get more HP from Nidalee heal, than you'd get from Soraka heal over time. Nidalee heals for 190 per 10 sec, Soraka heals 350 per 20sec. Then, there's the AP ratio. While Soraka's Heal has 0.45 AP ratio, Nidalee has 0.7 so even the slightest amount of AP gives a significantly bigger boost to Nidalee than it does for Soraka.
You really say soraka heal doesnt brign any offensive qualities like nids does and forget that soraka heal gives your ad carry 90 armor which is HUGE against their bruiser jumping him...


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Lullaby

Senior Member

21-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petekes View Post
You really say soraka heal doesnt brign any offensive qualities like nids does and forget that soraka heal gives your ad carry 90 armor which is HUGE against their bruiser jumping him...
125 armor actually, and I wouldn't call that an offensive quality, since it clearly is a defensive quality. Yeah, it can help your AD carry win a fight he otherwise wouldn't, but there's still really no real way to use it offensively.


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Petekes

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21-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyor0n View Post
125 armor actually, and I wouldn't call that an offensive quality, since it clearly is a defensive quality. Yeah, it can help your AD carry win a fight he otherwise wouldn't, but there's still really no real way to use it offensively.
Heal tank before initiate -> offensive use.
How would you use nid heal offensive on your ad carry in lane? Are your enemys bots who stand there eating all autos? Oo