Udyr Jungle: Phoenix vs Tiger

12
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JuicyFrog

Senior Member

29-12-2011

I just made a quick test on 2 custom games Jungling with Udyr using his two tecniques: Phoenix and Tiger.

I used the same route, same masteries, same runes, same summoner spells (Smite) and same starting items on both games to compare the tecquines.
I ll go on and post a list of the masteries and runes i used, as long with the route. This does not mean you have to do alike, I am just posting those for information purpose, you can use the results of this test whatever setup you ll choose to go for.

The Route
Start 1.40 Wolves -> Blue Golems (smite) -> Wraiths -> Small Golems -> Red Lizard (smite) -> Wraiths -> Wolves

So that is basically a complete run until Red lizards, where i took track of the time and my HPs, and then i made Wraiths and wolves again since they were up by that time, and took track of time/health again (I made Small Golems before Red Lizard becouse my Smite was still on CD, and of course i went wolves first since the spawn 15 secods faster then blue and it takes you 15/20 seconds to clear them, giving you basically free exp/gold before you start blue)

Runes: My Standard AD Setup: Armor Pen Red / Armor Yellows / CDR Blues / HP Quints

Masteries: 21 Defense / 9 Offense - with all the useful jungler skills maxed (Butcher, Tough Skin, Bladed Armor, Indomitable)

Starting Item: Life Leech Shythe

Skills: Maxing Phoenix or Tiger, taking turtle at level 2 and bear at level 4.
In both games i switched turtle + tiger/phoenix as much as i could to reduce the incoming damage, since i had the blue buff.

Phoenix build: R W R E
Tiger Build: Q W Q E

Results:
Phoenix
Red Lizard died at 3:30 and i had 340~ Health left (1 full run clearing all camps)
The full route (doing wraiths and wolves again) ended at 4,15 and i had 530~ Health left
That is 1 minute and 50 seconds to clear the whole jungle (1:40 - 3:30)

Tiger
Red Lizard died at 3,42 and i had 450~ Health left
Full rounte ended at 4,25 and i had 740~ health left
2 minutes and 2 seconds to clear the whole jungle

Phoenix vs Tiger
Phoenix is 12 seconds faster, Tiger offers a much better sustain; considering i was 450 health after Red Lizard and i got back on 740 Health after 2 camps (+300 HPs) we can safely say that once the 2 Buff camps are gone you can quickly go back at full health and keep jungling full HPs with tiger, while with phoenix you are gona need a lil bit more before you will be fully healed.
Also going tiger will surely give you the better ganking skill set of the two. I didnt consider the option of prioritizing bear over tiger, which might arguably give you even superior ganking capabilities trading for jungle sustain and speed.
Also whenever / wherever we will be ganking, we can be sure we will have more HPs if we choose Tiger over Phoenix.

TL;DR - Conclusions
1) Phoenix can clear the first jungle run 10~ seconds faster then tiger (2 mins vs 1,50)
2) Tiger gives you much better sustain if you start with a shythe with its superior physical dps, so you will have more HPs whenever you ll go to gank a lane.
3) Tiger > Phoneix for gank purposes, your early game ganks will be much better with the tiger build
4) During the Middle/Late Game phase you will be jungling less and less, making every point you ve put into Phoenix basically wasted
5) The Tiger build from an overall point of view is far superior then the Phoenix build.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Holodeck

Junior Member

30-12-2011

Interesting facts... I often pick the first lvl in phoenix and the rest goes right to tiger and turtle - that works best for me

Is there anyword on giving him a new passiv yet?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vadosi

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

30-12-2011

consider 2 facts. You were using wrong runes for phenix udyr, and why on earth you were running 9/21/0 as a jungler. 9 points in utility is way better because of movement speed/natural mobs buff duration. If you want to test phenix udyr pick more AS oriented runes and do not start with vamp scepter, as its gives more benefits to tiger udyr( this stance is ad based. phenix is magic damage).

And your conclusions are totally wrong they should go more in that habbit:
1) Phenix clears jungle faster then tiger even with setup for tiger.
2) Tiger udyr benefits more from vamp scepter.
3) Phenix > Tiger, because you can gank faster
4) Dont know how you are going to argument this conclusion. IMO its totally wrong.
5) Both stances have their + and -, but your test is not valid as you used build focused on Tiger stance.

I did a 2tests as well both for phenix:
Test one(forgot to take a ss after full clear + used ghost;p ): http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2913/phenixd.jpg
Second test: http://imageshack.us/g/528/screen02q.png/

0/21/9, AS red, Armour yellows, MR/lev blue, MS quints. Starting with Armour and 5 pots.

And his passive is still very good. With blue you should be able to keep it on tier 3 most of the time witch gives you free AS, so you can clear jungle faster.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

malkcontent

Senior Member

30-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vadosi View Post
1) Phoenix clears jungle faster then tiger even with setup for tiger.

This basically.
what you should have done was either use no runes or use optimised runes for both.
AS red and quints
AS mastery


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JuicyFrog

Senior Member

30-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vadosi View Post
consider 2 facts. You were using wrong runes for phenix udyr, and why on earth you were running 9/21/0 as a jungler. 9 points in utility is way better because of movement speed/natural mobs buff duration. If you want to test phenix udyr pick more AS oriented runes and do not start with vamp scepter, as its gives more benefits to tiger udyr( this stance is ad based. phenix is magic damage).

And your conclusions are totally wrong they should go more in that habbit:
1) Phenix clears jungle faster then tiger even with setup for tiger.
2) Tiger udyr benefits more from vamp scepter.
3) Phenix > Tiger, because you can gank faster
4) Dont know how you are going to argument this conclusion. IMO its totally wrong.
5) Both stances have their + and -, but your test is not valid as you used build focused on Tiger stance.

I did a 2tests as well both for phenix:
Test one(forgot to take a ss after full clear + used ghost;p ): http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2913/phenixd.jpg
Second test: http://imageshack.us/g/528/screen02q.png/

0/21/9, AS red, Armour yellows, MR/lev blue, MS quints. Starting with Armour and 5 pots.

And his passive is still very good. With blue you should be able to keep it on tier 3 most of the time witch gives you free AS, so you can clear jungle faster.
Well, your points make sense but i believe they are a lil bit too much phoenix fanboy point of view.
About masteries: going 9 offence is a matter of personal preference, the 20% buff duration and mana regen can be very helpful in the early game but since udyr is a beast in the jungle anyway (can clear it without ever need to go back from the beginning if you buy a scythe) and the offensive mastery is arguably a better choice late game/outside from the jungle: 4% AS and 10% ArPen. Even if its not and my point is completly wrong, that doesnt change much in a matter of Tiger vs Phoenix, which is what we r discussing here. Maybe in a way, can only be helpful for Phoenix Udyr due to the AS you talked about a lot.

About Runes: both stances make the same use of CRD, Armor and Health. The only one that could make a difference is the ArPen Reds. They still benefith both from it but obv Tiger Udyr is gona benefit more, but i dont think there this huge difference, also becouse the 15 ArPen given its not gona be used to the fullest since most of the monsters in hte jungle have Armor < 7/8.
I just used my general AD setup rune page for both, i didnt do this optimized for tiger to trick people in believing that tiger is better, and i chose to not change it for the test purposes (same items, same route, all the same.)

About Items: ok again obv scythe is much better for tiger Udyr, but again, if d have used a different item setup we should be taking in consideration more factors, making the test harder to evaluate, armor + 5 pots its 500hp heal in bottle and more armor then scythe. I d say probably you would end up with more hps then with a scythe after you used all the pots, not sure, but still then you have to consider 2 things: you used 175 golds in potions and your lantern will be delayed by that amount of golds, also, after your pots are no more, you have no more sustain, forcing you to go back to buy more and spend more money (the only form of sustain would be turtle stance actually, but in not sure that would be enough, and even if, is gona delay your jungle speed by a lot so thats not a considerable option).
I would say: Since you can easly go for sustain jungle with Udyr with a scythe why wouldnt wanna do it and waste your money (and time to go back and buy more) to buy pots? And since Tiger Udyr is the stance that benefit more from this item, why wouldnt you gona go for it?

1) The only thing among masteries/runes/items that could have been speed up the process of jungling in Phoenix form would be As runes, by how much i have to guess? 5 seconds? The setup i used was not ment to be a Tiger focused setup, was just a generic AD setup i had.
Also without scythe you will be forced to go back after your pots are no more, and the recall time alone will burn those 10 seconds you gained with Phoenix to dont mention the time you ll need to get back to the jungle from the fountain. And what about ganks? Will you have time for those too since you have to recall?
One more thing: As we can see from the time, after a certain point Tiger allowed me to clear the last 2 camps faster then Phoenix. I was 12 secs behind at Red lizard, but only 10 at the end of the route, meaning i catched up by 2 seconds with those last 2 camps, which are the 2 camps with most monsters (wraiths and wolves) which is where Phoenix should shine more due to the better AoE dmg. We cant say that after a certain level tiger become faster for sure, but this is a good clue, more tests should be taken.

2) Tiger Udyr + Scythe works great. Why wouldnt you wanna take adavantage of that? Why you wanna waste 175 gold for pots and delay your Wriggle, when you can heal yourself more with schthe + Tiger (+300 HPs during the last 2 camps - that is 3 pots).

3) You can gank faster with Phoenix before level 4, and you will have the worse skill setup (low single target damage)
You will have less hps and every damage you take you ll have to spend money to heal you back.
Also by using the cloth5 setup, you ll be forced to recall, and so your ganks can be a lot less frequent due to your lower sustain.
More sustain = more ganks with more hps

4) Whats the use of a Phoenix Udyr in a teamfight? or fewer man fight situation (1v1 - 2v2 - 3v3 etc)? You will never manage to damage more then 2 at one time, unless they r so retarded to stack up each other, the only thing i can think Phoenix to be good outside from the jungle is to push waves of minions back faster.

5) Again there was nothing to make it Tiger focused, beside the ArPen Reds (which are still good for Phoenix too) i really doubt that using As runes instead would make that huge of a difference. Maybe will just give Phoenix a 5 seconds edge.

I didnt wanna write all these things in the OP to keep it as much simple and clear for the readers, without tedious in dept discussion, but as you can see, if we go in a more depth analisys, the is a lot to talk about and your point of view looks a lil bit too much on the Phoenix side


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

WIsP21

Junior Member

31-12-2011

1)I think tiger is for lane and phnix for jungle.

2) As runes for Phnix make him a lot faster

3) I never buy wriggles with udyr so i wont need scythe

4) Its always better to farm with Udyr than to try chasing kills all over the map so its better to use phnix cause your much faster

5) Of course in 1v1 tiger is better (that's why you take tiger on top) and for ganks it might be good too, but I think for jungling phnix > tiger


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Onerios

Senior Member

31-12-2011

Yeh, your setup is slanted towards tiger. For a better comparison, run as runes for phoenix, and start with a setup that uses potions, such as cloth armor or boots. Either offence or util could work for masteries, would not impact either one substantialy.

As mentioned, with the new jungle setup, you spend more time farming then you do ganking, and so its better to prioritise fast jungle speed and take a slight hit to ganking. If the respawn rate on the jungle was longer,or had more emphisis on counter jungleing, I would agree with you that tiger is better, but at current, phoenix wins out.

Actualy, one more point. The fact that jungle udyr is normaly built as a tank is also a reason for phoenix over tiger, as in order to get the most out of tiger, you need a decent ammount of ad.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Amiag

Senior Member

31-12-2011

why would u start with lifesteal on udyr ? lifesteal so useless on him


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sengoku Iori

Senior Member

31-12-2011

Ive just done jungling with phx udyr

The Route
Custom game, blue->wolves->wraths->red->golems->wraths

Runes: AS red, flat armor yellow, AS blue, MS quints

Masteries: 0/21/9

Starting items; boots +3pots.

Results;
No pulling blue
Red dies 3.09
lone clear to level 4: 3.45
Finished hp; 230-250
Full jungle clear would be 1.30? Maybe less I did everything 3 times but didnt really pay attention here.


Damage phx vs tiger lvl9 in 5sec no items, no runes etc passive maxed at start. Atkspeed 0.996 ~1s

phx; 200+48+5*(55+12)+5*(82+24)=1113

tiger; atkspeed 1.489 ~1.5 lets say in favor for tiger 8 attacks in 5 sec. Atkspeed buffs duration 5sec as well.
230+82*0.5+8*82=927

This is flat math, nobody uses these permanently but you mix them to get even highier damage input plus utility from all stances.

Tiger does better to the late game as atkspeed scales with all the damage items.

TL;DR - Conclusions
1) Phx can clear the first jungle run in 30s faster than tiger (1.30 vs 2min)
2) Tiger gives you much better sustain if you start with a shythe with its superior physical dps, so you will have more HPs whenever you ll go to gank a lane.
3) Phoneix ~ Tiger for gank purposes, your early game ganks will be better with the superior phx damage.
4) During the Middle/Late Game phase you will be jungling less and less, and as you get triforce/madreds/wits end tiger will do more damage with basic atacks (atkspeed/crit + your arp runes).
5) The Tiger build from an overall point of view is far superior if you line but phx looks better on paper while you are jungling. And from my experience I perform better with phoenix in jungle.
6) I always found it personal preference what you do in jungle and how you do it. Everything does fine as long as you are any good jungler.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JuicyFrog

Senior Member

31-12-2011

you should have done the same route cos obv if you start blue you can use all the mana you want for wolves, make them obv faster, but that would be not realistic since in a normal game you clean wolves before blue, since they spawn 15 secs faster.

Anyway, all that is interesting, at least you pov is clearly objective. If you do it again with the same route of mine i ll post results in OP


12