Why does Wukong have Mana when Garen doesn't?

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Kaalinn

Senior Member

05-10-2011

Lately I've been wondering about why Wukong is subject to mana use when other champions, and especially similar champions in abilities (Garen) or playstyle aren't. Upsides to Mana having I can think of: Manamune (but you really shouldn't have one on Wukong). That one Defensive Master ability. Downsides: Running out. Wukong Specific: Giving away Decoy. (see below)

Let's compare Garen and Wukong: (Ults omitted due to myriad other threads on them)

Q: Garen: Speedboost and Silence, 90 bonus damage + 1.4 per AD. So actually full damage + 0.4 extra + 90 extra. 8s cooldown.

Wukong: 150 bonus Damage. Flat. Armor debuff. 5s cooldown.

All in all Wukong has less cooldown and 60 more damage for not having +0.4 per AD. So once you exceed about 150 AD, Garen's does more damage, but has longer cooldown. Arguably way better due to speedboost and superiority of silence though.

W: Garen: A passive that will be flat out better than Wukong's innate passive 10 minutes into the game, be always active independent of enemies (Hello Dragon/Blue/Red!) and gives more boost. An active that absorbs a flat amount of damage. Can't avoid CC. Lasts 3 seconds. 18s Cooldown.

Wukong: Decoy. Grants stealth, does minor AE that can pop Banshee's Veil. Scales with AP unlike everything else Wukong has. 10s Cooldown. Makes your mana bar go down visibly to the enemy, making it painfully obvious you used Decoy. Also fails if any sort of buff/debuff/DoT animation is on you because it won't be on the Decoy. Can avoid CC. (if they fall for it)

Unless someone like Veigar decides to ult your Decoy because he is completely oblivious to the fact you used it, Garen is almost guaranteed to absorb more damage. Only advantage is being untargettable, especially to avoid CC, or pop cooldowns on CC. (Because Garen could just tank the damage to pop cooldowns on damage abilities anyway). Useful to get away or initiate for Wukong. Useful in every situation ever for Garen.

E: Garen: The Spin. Damage. Break slows. Don't be slowed as hard. Scales with crit, supporting a wider build. 105 damage + 0.7 AD per half-second, for 6 hits in 3 second duration. 9s cooldown.

Wukong: Triple-Split Dash. 240 + 0.8 AD damage to up to three targets (non-designated). Attack speed buff. 8s Cooldown.

This is a hard comparison. Both skills are good, and not at all similar. Garen's is arguably better though due to its slow-breaking and lowering nature, and the overall way higher damage output as soon as enemies stay in it for 1.5 seconds, although Wukong has the advantage of it being a gap-closing Dash. (though Garen gets gap-closing from his Q obviously, while this is Wukong's gap closer). Cooldowns virtually the same.


Now, apart from the listed differences, and advantages (often in Garen's favor), the main difference of course is that all of those abilities for Wukong use Mana, while Garen is entirely cooldown based. Not only do you run the risk of going OOM (though yes, this is rare if you don't spam like mad, but still possible), it also disadvantages Wukong because it gives away the fact you used Decoy.

While you could argue that taking away his mana use would give him better sustain and that's not the intention, there are other manaless champions of similar damage/squishyness levels already.

Basically what I'm looking for in this thread isn't "Lol yes Wukong so UP needs a buff." But rather arguments for why Wukong shouldn't have mana, and especially arguments for WHY Wukong should have mana. If after thorough deliberation we cannot think of any reason why he should (and honestly, maybe I'm just overlooking something here and I'd be glad if someone could point out a reason), then that's a statement we can make toward Riot.


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MegaVolti

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Senior Member

05-10-2011

Why should any champion have mana? It's an anti fun mechanic. All champions should use an energy system to balance their damage output. Energy is a much more fun mechanic than mana.

That being said since mana is the "default" resource I see no reason for Wukong not to use it. His mana costs are so low that it hardly matters anyway. And having mana helps me feel good when I buy Trinity Force
What Wukong really needs is a small buff to his W (stealth duration maybe a bit longer?) and to his R scaling (make it exactly like Garens scaling, give it +0.2 more AD scaling and let the bonus damage scale with crit).


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Morathi

Member

05-10-2011

For balance, Obviously.


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Kaalinn

Senior Member

05-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyanNyanNyanNyan View Post
For balance, Obviously.
Which would then make Garen/Riven/etc unbalanced? Or they're fine and Wukong's just worse off for no reason. Basically that's what's there to figure out.


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JackTheHat

Senior Member

05-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaalinn View Post
Which would then make Garen/Riven/etc unbalanced? Or they're fine and Wukong's just worse off for no reason. Basically that's what's there to figure out.
Wukong's cool downs are much lower than Garens.


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oiml

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Senior Member

05-10-2011

You can't compare Wukong to Garen, sorry. They have one similar ability, but for Garen it's his main source of damage, for Wukong it is supposed to be his high damage teamfight skill, where it sadly just epic fails. Wukong just lacks in the sustained damage department, thats why he has to buy damage items instead of tank items like garen, which makes him too squishy and unreliable.


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Kaalinn

Senior Member

05-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by oiml View Post
You can't compare Wukong to Garen, sorry. They have one similar ability, but for Garen it's his main source of damage, for Wukong it is supposed to be his high damage teamfight skill, where it sadly just epic fails. Wukong just lacks in the sustained damage department, thats why he has to buy damage items instead of tank items like garen, which makes him too squishy and unreliable.
You'll find a similarity of passives, although provided by Garen's W instead of innate, aswell, and the basic idea of the Q being an added damage strike with an additional effect with W also being defensive in nature.

Comparing him to anyone else is much more of a stretch.

As for being too squishy.... again Garen's W comes in, giving him an anti-squishy passive that is almost the same as Wukongs.... except worse, and then Garen still has his innate passive to fall back on on top of that. It just leaves Wukong permanently "worse" than Garen in every department.


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MoonlightSkye

Senior Member

05-10-2011

There are several advantages Wukong has over Garen

A leap strike - where he gets right up in their face instantly. I'm sorry, but Garens Q doesn't qualify as a gap closer, that small speed boost isn't enough to stop you from getting kited around.

A stealth ability - Wukong can go in and get out without a scratch thanks to his stealth. Sure Garen gets a % damage reduction, but he'll still eat a lot of damage when trying to escape.

Passive Attack Speed - Wukong can actually deal damage with auto attacks, Garen is a very sluggish auto attacker and is mostly built purely for his Q -> E combo, when thats done, hes pretty helpless to most

AoE CC - Wukong can knock everyone up, this is an amazing disruptive ability.


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Abdemian

Senior Member

05-10-2011

Wukong is really far from having mana problems.


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mem521

Senior Member

05-10-2011

The only problem with WuKong having mana (or low mana) is at the start of the game. I sort out the problem by getting Philosophers stone and then sheen but is fairly difficult up until that point. My main is WuKong but i would argue that initial mana may be increased to subdue the problem, other then that it is in the interest of balance. It just means that you must have an expensive and at times Hybrid item build.

This fits in what i put in my thread about the comparison between WuKong and Garen in other aspects such as the ultimate.
http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=410114


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