Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a tonne of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out Boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Tanks lost viability in season 5

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

wurgel

Senior Member

01-27-2015

that's the problem. Def-stats HAVE to be in that sweet-spot between getting killed in focus and beating offensive stats in a 1-on-1 fight. Offensive stats CAN be stacked by multiple champions for the full effect. (f.e. 2 adc focussing a tank will kill him twice as fast)
Defensive stats on the other hand have no team-synergy. You have a tank and he get's ignored? Stats wasted. You have 2 tanks? doesn't allow each of them to survive longer in the focus. (CC of the other tank doesn't count, since he could offer those even with an offensive build)
--> In a teamfight def-stats will ALWAYS lose against offensive stats. They don't offer farming/pushing power ether. So to have any reason to actually buy them, they must beat offensive stats in a 1-on-1 situation. Sadly Riot wants their "flashy plays", so we now have a situation, where offensive can beat def even in a 1-on-1 situation.

Quote:
The only thing that tanks have gotten from items is more health regen

Are you sure?
Warmogs right now: 800 hp and 1%/3% per 5 as hp-reg
old Warmogs (in his weakest form): up to 1270 HP and 45 hp/5 (=1% on 4500 hp)
--> old warmogs gave both, more hp AND more hp-reg infight. Just the ooc-reg added on 4.20 is better on the new Warmogs, but that came with a 200 less hp-nerf.
And how about FoN? 1.75%/5 and 40hp/5 in it's weakest form


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

higura

Senior Member

01-27-2015

the tank items are simply too expensive compared to what they give...

this leaves full tanks to become useless because they only "works" when they are on the winning team there benefits more from damage to increase the gap rather than a tank...

while the tank on the other team cant create the opening their team needs because he dies as fast as any other champion on the team.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DragonOverlord

Senior Member

01-27-2015

Quote:
wurgel:
You have a tank and he get's ignored? Stats wasted.


It's in the definition of a tank to have enough CC that they cause a mess of your team so you CAN'T ignore them. It's in their job description to be in your face, blocking skill shots, soaking damage etc. And for this they need defensive stats, you can't have a glass cannon CC machine, it doesn't work.

But, the balance problem comes NOT when tanks die too easily, but when defensive stats are so good you can turn any tank into a bruiser. Tanks aren't supposed to be able to 1v1 ANYONE, that's the job of the bruiser/fighter! Tanks should not have a risk free initiate, if a tank starts a stupid teamfight they need to die for it, not live so long their team can follow up no matter how bad their engage was. Playing with a wombo engage tank needs to carry that risk.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dame

Senior Member

01-27-2015

Actually if a tank do a initiate and he's team don't follow he immediately he'll die in ~3-5s, which is laughable, that someone who wasted all of he's gold/rune/mastery etc. to survivability die in seconds.
Yes that ~3-5s can be extended by some champ's ability, but the items adds close to no extra survivability, and the actual masteries offer low defense compared to offensive ones.

If the enemy team react immediately to your initiate and you don't have a charge like ability you can't even get to melee range, which means no dmg for a melee champ.

The actual warmog not worth to be picked, whit the last change they killed it completely. There's no point in picking it over omen or any other hp item. It's hp5 barely noticeable, the 3%/5s have same problem as Garen's passive have, it has no effect in fights, yet for that useless bonus they nerfed it by 200hp. It's 3%regen stoped by minions, so it's only useful when you're afk. The 1%hp reg would be good, if there would be high hp item's, but sadly there are no such items.

Strong mr item basically doesn't exits. If you build half of your build to mr, then you still end somewhere near ~200, which is nothing for a "full tank".


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DragonOverlord

Senior Member

01-27-2015

Quote:
Dame:
Actually if a tank do a initiate and he's team don't follow he immediately he'll die in ~3-5s.


But that 3-5s is more than enough to wipe out their whole team if you follow the engage well. What I'm saying is it's healthy that this window is short because it adds SKILL to playing a tank, and also to playing with your team tanks when you are someone else.

Quote:
Dame:
Strong mr item basically doesn't exits. If you build half of your build to mr, then you still end somewhere near ~200, which is nothing for a "full tank".[/I]


True, but this is also fine. Now with so many AD casters, the only difference between Magic and Physical damage is itemisation. You need an AP to kill tanks that stack armour, that's pretty fair. There are plenty of MR options for bruisers (Maw of Malmortius, Wit's End) which means you can make a specialised anti-mage but your tank fills a different role, one which is designed to be stronger vs. AD champs.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RamirezKurita

Senior Member

01-27-2015

As other have pointed out - tanks have no effective defensive items any more. As far as I can see every single defensive item has been nerfed into oblivion over time, with many of the nerfs being disguised as "readjustments" by combining their stat reduction with a reduced cost.

This slow reduction over time has created the situation where, although many defensive items are pretty good compared to other items in their price range, they can't compare to the 3000+ gold heavy hitters that offensive builds with be composed of. This issue causes problems long before tanks have their inventories clogged by midrange items because the gold cost/gold effectiveness ratio does not stay linear but instead very much favours the biggest and most expensive items. This means that tanks tend to remain pretty much fine until both parties have more than about 3000 gold because of how a 2500 gold tank item can trade blows with a 2500 offensive item, but a 2500 gold tank item plus a 1000 gold item cannot match up to the incredible power and efficiency of a 3500 gold item. The situation only gets worse as the game goes on as an entire build of 2500 gold items can't go up against a small collection of the ultra-efficient top-end offensive items.

This brings in the problem where you can't really compare the efficiencies between a 3000+ gold endgame item and a 2000-3000 gold midgame item, but the problem is that tanks effectively have no endgame items. To give you an idea of how bad the problem is tanks only have one item that costs over 3000 gold: Frozen Mallet (which even has more than 1000 gold value of AD), with most of their main items being in the 2500-2800 gold range. Meanwhile AD champions enjoy the benefits of not one, not two, but four seperate 3000+ gold items (Hydra, Essence Reaver, Infinity Edge and Bloodthirster) each of which is almost equal to two of a tank's core items in terms of stats provided, with another five high-end items for niche or defensive purposes (Mercurial Scimitar, Black Cleaver, MoM, Triforce, BotRK).

If tanks had a few more high-end items that they could slot into their builds to take advantage of the exponential efficiency of high cost items then they would actually be able to do their job past the first few minutes of the game.

To give an idea of the sort of efficiency high-end items offer that tanks are missing out on, here's a simple example made by converting stats to equivalent values from an Infinity Edge:

145 armour (80 AD is worth 2880 gold or 144 armour which I then rounded to 145, although it could also be rounded to 140)
375 health (20% crit chance is worth 1000 gold, or 375 health)
Reduce damage from incoming critical strikes by 20% (cancels out the 50% increased crit damage exactly)

Now the above item isn't a suggestion for something that should be added to the game, it's just an example to show how bad defensive items have become compared to the offensive items they are trying to protect you from, for the purposes of the argument I could have instead theorised an item with 1080 health and 50 armour simply by swapping how the stats are exchanged or taken a different offensive item as the base to get values off. I'm pretty sure that if an item such as the above were to be added into the game then tanks and fulltank fighters would actually start to make appearances again, simply because if they had access to strong items they could once again take part in battles of attrition rather than dying horribly after a couple of seconds once their CC has run out. At the moment most tanks seem to be more effective building AP simply because with AP they can at least help burst down the enemy team but with tank items they still can't survive long enough to pull off multiple spell rotations most of the time.

It's also not just the sheer defensive stats on the tank items that have been hit, but also the ability for tanks to protect their allies and redirect aggro towards themselves through their itemisation. I remember at the team-protecting (as opposed to focusing on their own survivability) tank's peak that if a tank got fed they would become a priority target if they were building to protect their team simply because trying to focus down the damage dealers would be so ineffective because of the extra auras and shields the tank was providing on top of their CC.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Evil Squidward

Senior Member

01-27-2015

one thing that allways annoys me in these conversations is people act like ADCs hit full build at 10 mins and never get CCed at all.

tanks DONT die in 3 seconds unless its WAY into the ADCs lategame or you are way behind. there are plenty of brick wall champs that take a hell of a lot of killing if they get ahead.

the MAIN problem with the "tank" class is that it may as well just be called "damageless bruiser". think about it. who was the last guy you really thought "damn hes unkillable". guaranteed it was J4. and before that lee sin, and before that... well basically more J4 and lee sin, with a side-note of alistar/braum/leona/thresh. it was NEVER mundo, or nautilus, or zac or sejuani.

a "tank" is just someone who tends to build merc treads, randuins, SFC/frozen heart and banshees. and since you can either do that on zac and do tiny damage, or do it on j4 and instagib people with just brutalizer and hydra.

tanks feel like they are glass because they dont do any damage, so people have all the time in the world to focus them. im talking specifically about jungler/toplane tanks, which im assuming we all are. supports are a different matter because while tanks are getting weaker supports are on average getting stronger. every new support or reworked one comes out with more CC, more free stats, more free damage, more ways to lock down loads of people or soak loads of damage with minimal items.


so really it comes down to tanks not having changed in a long time, but bruisers and supports getting buffed so hard they outclass tanks. ARP means base damage bruisers dont fall off now, so whereas j4/lee sin used to eventually do as little damage as tanks do, now they just keep blowing people up. but actual tanks without free defensive stats tend to struggle, and since they have no offence its basically impossible to get them snowballing in the first place so they can get ahead of this ARP arms-race. guaranteed the talon/pantheon/zed has brutalizer and LW before the tank has even got randuins, and the ADC will have both BotRK and IE.

there is a simple way to fix this. right now, supports and bruisers have too many free stats and tanks have basically none, all tanks tend to scale with %total HP, which is both trash in the early-mid when riot puts all the important parts of the game and it brings 0 offence to the table. %hp also tends to be really weak scaling on abilities with considerable cooldowns or costs because while most bruisers can nuke and gap close every 10s or less tanks generally sit around the 16 sec mark on abilities.

so to fix this, i think we need to rip the guts out of the bruiser class and nerf arp, then tone down the levels of support CC. bruisers will become the midpoint between tanks and assassins (sort of where wukong sits right now, bursty but tankyish) and they will be encouraged to buy more of the "bruiser" items like trinity and maw, rather then Hydra-Cleaver-fulltank, to be relevant. they wont do assassin damage, but will do enough to need fast peeling. tanks however can go back to being brick-walls, without being outclassed by the fact most supports have about 3-4 seconds of CC with low cooldowns and enough free armor/mr to be as tanky as a shen with only 1 tank item (looking at you leona and thresh).

ARP is making tanks weak, and bruisers/supports are making them worthless. BIG change is needed, and i think since riot are more likely to go for a change that makes the game "flashier" (squishier toplanes makes for more explosive battles and less arp means the ADCs might come back into balance instead of just hopping around melting people effortlessly).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Wynillo

Senior Member

01-27-2015

Buff Thornmail and get us Magic Thornmail, everything is ok.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

xt002

Senior Member

01-28-2015

Quote:

True, but this is also fine. Now with so many AD casters, the only difference between Magic and Physical damage is itemisation. You need an AP to kill tanks that stack armour, that's pretty fair. There are plenty of MR options for bruisers (Maw of Malmortius, Wit's End) which means you can make a specialised anti-mage but your tank fills a different role, one which is designed to be stronger vs. AD champs.


Thats the problem tbh, you don't need an ap burster to kill a tank.
5AD teams can very easely kill a rammus stacking up to 500 armor with his W.

In the past (way back i guess) if the enemy team blew their cds on you as the tank you filled your purpose, now they kill you with AA's in 2seconds flat.

And you could say that lategame is the time ADC's are meant to shine but almost every game this season gets to 50min+ now.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Inaphyt

Senior Member

01-28-2015

5 auto's without arp pen on a full tank good luck chum. ;p

Whole thread is just a load of exaggeration people just whinge about magic resistance because it doesn't offer the same all around defences that armour does (turrets/ adc/ minions) if they made turrets do magic damage there would be more incentive to buy it and people could stop whinging.