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Final thoughts on the chat restriction system

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JagPrime

Member

01-16-2015

I've been thinking about the new system (hence also my behavior).

While I definitely agree that we need some system that takes action against abuse AND that I flamed in some of my games and deserve a punishment. Here are my thoughts:
1. We had one whole season without hardly anything as counter measures against bad behavior. It was troll paradise.
2. It just went to a point that it had pretty much contaminated everyone and the overall level of negativity went sky high. Because report had no effect at all and people knew, every in-game argument just escalated to its full extent.
3. Finally the game now adopts a system that tries to address that, but does it in such a bad way that it hurts more than it heals.

As positives, I see:
- It is good they care to try addressing the issues.
- We have something. Impunity is gone.

As issues I see:
A. Someone that is chat restricted should still be able to report people with a limit. Otherwise, they just become the victims of all evil behavior. They cannot answer, even in a civilized way, as the other guy will report them, no matter how kindly he says thing. And his reports won't harm the flamer(s). So the flamer will leave free as a bird.
B. If the system was able to discriminate false reports effectively, it would NOT be an issue to have restricted people retain some rights to report.
C. I got chat restricted and a skin. And I am to believe that the system is smart enough? Fail. I would even prefer you don't give it to me for the sake of coherency, because to me it is more a problem to have a faulty system than to get free stuff.
D. If some people think that saying 'muted' is offensive in any way, then maybe for some 'gg' at the end is mockery. Means that saying anything or :-) might make you get reported. Heck, in some thread I stumbled upon someone that was saying that using laugh emotes was negative attitude. If champion emotes are considered offensive why did riot implement them? We have also losers reporting winners just because they are angry and want to take revenge.
E. It's been quite a while that people know, that only verbal abuse, negative attitude, feed do actually do something, all people report in those categories.
F. Since the system believes that a certain amount of reports you got is sign enough that you deserve punishment, we're screwed.
G. Lack of transparency. How in hell does a game expect to promote professionnal e-sport when there is a repressive system with undefined/undisclosed rules that can ban pro players (I'm definitely not ;-) ) out of ranked for a significative amount of time? The day a big name is banned out of ranked without any proof that they deserve it, the system will be deemed as corrupt and unsuitable for e-sport.
H. Normal games to win + possible elo decay : it's double punishment.
I. If it is flame behavior they want to improve, then what have game modes to do with it? I can hear 'ranked is special'. And what ? In normal it is more ok to flame/leave/feed ? So it is not behavior that is at hand here.
J. The community of LOL has a very bad reputation. Sure, it has to be fixed. But now, the LOL Community, hopefully will still be able to discuss freely in forums (you never know), but will become as silent as a cemetary in-game. I for one now mute everyone and don't type anything anymore. I estimate the risk being too high to get punished again.
K. They are sure their automatic system really know how to recognize slurs in all languages? Because I know three languages and I'm pretty sure one goes unnoticed.
L. Ranked restrictions actually forces you to play more... How absurd...


- Suggestions:
1. Disclose the rules. What is there to fear ?
A. A list of bad words that get you tagged--> flamers might want to avoid those insults to not get caught => WIN
B. Disclose the certain amount/percentage of reports that trigger scrutiny ? --> evil guys will stay just Under this threshold => well it still a decrease of the total flame => WIN. And still leaves a bit of freedom to answer (hopefully in a civilized way) while you know you will get a report.
2. Just ban out people for a period.
A. Every sport, justice system puts away bad apples for a moment. Why try to reinvent the Wheel with different sanctions ?
B. It really sends a message.
C. Flamers out of the game can think for a while. If they just keep playing right away, while nobody teaches them how to change. Guess what, they won't. They will be limited by chat restriction, but frustration will still be growing silently.
D. It takes away the problematic person out of the game. Even if temporary, that's still a break for the others.
3. No ranked restrictions.
4. Remove chat entirely
A. We have the ping system now that supporters of new punishment system advocates is enough to play.
B. Chat only brings risks of flame.
C. You could do as for chess: any comment is considered bad.
D. No one dares to say anything about anything anyway now so it's useless and makes you use lots of resources to parse them to find wrong behavior. Waste of time, waste of energy, little benefits.
E. Some conviviality could be preserved in after game discussions, when 'stress' is less present.
F. Makes the report system having less categories since all verbal-based reports are gone.
5. Just make surrender available sooner
A. When you have a troll/afk, usually you know the game is lost in 5 min. I think it just makes everyone mad to stay there playing a doomed game for 15 min. Which will have an impact on behavior. If you're the only one thinking it's over, democracy will make the game continue.

Now: My behavior.
- I never leave though and never feed voluntarily.
- I flamed.
A. Usually because provoked. Those I should have muted.
B. Sometimes I did flame people first (trolls/afk/feeders) or less gentle of me : less skilled than me). The first category, I should just have give up because there's nothing you can do, the second I should not have judged because in the big picture I'm not all that skilled either. And as for games with trolls, just give up or you even might get Lucky.
C. Sometimes I'm just in a bad mood.
D. I regret having said most of the things I said. I cannot apologize to everyone since I don't remember all of them and all things I said. If they read me: I'm sorry.
D. I found out there is absolutely no incentive to read or write in the chat. most of it is negative. the positive is 'nice skin', 'gg', 'wp', nothing that really matters. The rest is evil.

Conclusion, I will just play with /mute all and consider I play with bots. Sometimes bot are so dumb you have to do all the work, but there is no point writing to them as they never improve. Well I'll see it like this. It's a bit sad, but that's all I can think now about the conviviality in this game. Anyway, as I said above, with the current system I expect the game will be very silent anyway. Maybe that's the best it has to offer.

And that being said, I will stop my contributions in this forum. Enjoy while you can!


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KiwiGeneral

Senior Member

01-17-2015

Quote:
2. It just went to a point that it had pretty much contaminated everyone and the overall level of negativity went sky high. Because report had no effect at all and people knew, every in-game argument just escalated to its full extent.

Proof? Or simply your feeling?

Quote:
3. Finally the game now adopts a system that tries to address that, but does it in such a bad way that it hurts more than it heals.

Again, proof? Or simply again your feeling, because you got hit by it?


Quote:
A. Someone that is chat restricted should still be able to report people with a limit. Otherwise, they just become the victims of all evil behavior. They cannot answer, even in a civilized way, as the other guy will report them, no matter how kindly he says thing. And his reports won't harm the flamer(s). So the flamer will leave free as a bird.

Punished people can still report people.
There is no need to limit their amount of reports, there's already systems against report abuse in place.
Also, if someone is flaming, the best way to handle it, is by ignoring or muting such people.
Talking back/Fanning the flames is NOT a civilised way of communicating.

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B. If the system was able to discriminate false reports effectively, it would NOT be an issue to have restricted people retain some rights to report.

Well, it has no problems.
So, no problem letting people with a punishment have their report privilige.

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C. I got chat restricted and a skin. And I am to believe that the system is smart enough? Fail. I would even prefer you don't give it to me for the sake of coherency, because to me it is more a problem to have a faulty system than to get free stuff.

Because the cr system handed out the skin. Sure.
As always, mistakes happen. As long as they don't happen too often, there is no problem.

Quote:
D. If some people think that saying 'muted' is offensive in any way, then maybe for some 'gg' at the end is mockery. Means that saying anything or :-) might make you get reported. Heck, in some thread I stumbled upon someone that was saying that using laugh emotes was negative attitude. If champion emotes are considered offensive why did riot implement them? We have also losers reporting winners just because they are angry and want to take revenge.

You simply forget that punishments are/were a community decision.
If the community decides that fanning the flames is forbidden than it is so.
And saying "muted" can definitely be seen as fanning the flames.

Quote:
E. It's been quite a while that people know, that only verbal abuse, negative attitude, feed do actually do something, all people report in those categories.

Actually no. Most people don't know this.
Most people don't use the forum or other sites, were this kind of information is found.
Also, inappropriate name also leads to a punishment, if it is valid.

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F. Since the system believes that a certain amount of reports you got is sign enough that you deserve punishment, we're screwed.

Wrong as always.
You simply get flagged for review for a certain amount of reports, nothing more.

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G. Lack of transparency. How in hell does a game expect to promote professionnal e-sport when there is a repressive system with undefined/undisclosed rules that can ban pro players (I'm definitely not ;-) ) out of ranked for a significative amount of time? The day a big name is banned out of ranked without any proof that they deserve it, the system will be deemed as corrupt and unsuitable for e-sport.

So simply "Don't be a jerk" is so hard to follow?
Also, show me where a pro player was banned without proof.

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H. Normal games to win + possible elo decay : it's double punishment.

So? Riot's game = Riot's decision how they want to punish people.
In real life you have often the same thing by getting probation and a fine.

Quote:
I. If it is flame behavior they want to improve, then what have game modes to do with it? I can hear 'ranked is special'. And what ? In normal it is more ok to flame/leave/feed ? So it is not behavior that is at hand here.

No, but most toxic behaviour is foudn in ranked games.

Quote:
J. The community of LOL has a very bad reputation. Sure, it has to be fixed. But now, the LOL Community, hopefully will still be able to discuss freely in forums (you never know), but will become as silent as a cemetary in-game. I for one now mute everyone and don't type anything anymore. I estimate the risk being too high to get punished again.

You can discuss in this forum, as long as you don't break the rules.

Quote:
K. They are sure their automatic system really know how to recognize slurs in all languages? Because I know three languages and I'm pretty sure one goes unnoticed.

That's why Riot is really lenient with toxic people. Riot let's go free before they'd punish them without enough proof.
Also, you forget that the cr system learns. Your slur may go unnoticed the first two times, but not necessarily the third time.

Quote:
L. Ranked restrictions actually forces you to play more... How absurd...

They also force you to think about your behaviour... How absurd...

Quote:
1. Disclose the rules. What is there to fear ?
A. A list of bad words that get you tagged--> flamers might want to avoid those insults to not get caught => WIN
B. Disclose the certain amount/percentage of reports that trigger scrutiny ? --> evil guys will stay just Under this threshold => well it still a decrease of the total flame => WIN. And still leaves a bit of freedom to answer (hopefully in a civilized way) while you know you will get a report.

A. They simply use different words, that are not on the list.
List gets expanded? Flamers use yet another word.

B. ~20% of your games(not total games, but also not the last ten games played).
Also, your idea wouldn't decrease flame, because most toxic behaviour doesn't come from toxic players.
Your would simply allwo toxic players to get a "out of jail card".

Quote:
2. Just ban out people for a period.
A. Every sport, justice system puts away bad apples for a moment. Why try to reinvent the Wheel with different sanctions ?
B. It really sends a message.
C. Flamers out of the game can think for a while. If they just keep playing right away, while nobody teaches them how to change. Guess what, they won't. They will be limited by chat restriction, but frustration will still be growing silently.
D. It takes away the problematic person out of the game. Even if temporary, that's still a break for the others.

Because time bans ahve proven to be ineffective? Have you thought about why Riot changed that? No.
But don't worry, the new tribunal will bring two weeks bans back for real toxic behaviour.

Quote:
3. No ranked restrictions.

So, that people that flame because "MUH RANK, DEM NOOBS" keep flaming in ranked games?
Nah.
Riot has already stated the new tribunal will keep the cr+rr system.

Quote:
4. Remove chat entirely
A. We have the ping system now that supporters of new punishment system advocates is enough to play.
B. Chat only brings risks of flame.
C. You could do as for chess: any comment is considered bad.
D. No one dares to say anything about anything anyway now so it's useless and makes you use lots of resources to parse them to find wrong behavior. Waste of time, waste of energy, little benefits.
E. Some conviviality could be preserved in after game discussions, when 'stress' is less present.
F. Makes the report system having less categories since all verbal-based reports are gone.

Please, don't speak about everyone, when you only mean toxic players.
I do not fear to use the chat, nor anyone else I play with.
And I do see the chat used for what it was intended, speaking about strategies.
Also, Lyte has said, that he'd like to clean up the report reasons.

Quote:
5. Just make surrender available sooner
A. When you have a troll/afk, usually you know the game is lost in 5 min. I think it just makes everyone mad to stay there playing a doomed game for 15 min. Which will have an impact on behavior. If you're the only one thinking it's over, democracy will make the game continue.

A point that could we consider.
Imo 15 minutes would be enough.

Quote:
Now: My behavior.
- I never leave though and never feed voluntarily.
- I flamed.
A. Usually because provoked. Those I should have muted.
B. Sometimes I did flame people first (trolls/afk/feeders) or less gentle of me : less skilled than me). The first category, I should just have give up because there's nothing you can do, the second I should not have judged because in the big picture I'm not all that skilled either. And as for games with trolls, just give up or you even might get Lucky.
C. Sometimes I'm just in a bad mood.
D. I regret having said most of the things I said. I cannot apologize to everyone since I don't remember all of them and all things I said. If they read me: I'm sorry.
E. I found out there is absolutely no incentive to read or write in the chat. most of it is negative. the positive is 'nice skin', 'gg', 'wp', nothing that really matters. The rest is evil.

A-D: Well atleast you still have a conscience.
E: Fun Fact#666: Toxic people see more toxic behaviour than others.

So conclusion:
Your post was uninformed as always.
And you simply want the system to change in a way that it favors flamers.


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JagPrime

Member

01-17-2015

Thanks for your comments.

Quote:
Well atleast you still have a conscience.

Who are you to judge me? You're free to judge my arguments, not me. I definitely feel like you want to belittle me. Is it not something that could be considered negative attitude? ;-). Imagine the report system being applied here. This conversation could not happen if we would both be in fear of a report...

A system is only needing a critical mass of adopters who benefit from the system. Once there, it will be more than happy to use any detractors as scapegoats for whatever is wrong with the system, whose core values of course were vertuous.

I can't remember a dictator getting to power by saying:
- I'll be corrupt as hell
- I'll be evil as hell
- It is to grief all of you
- it is to get more power over you.

Usually they come with more seductive arguments. "It is to protect you" comes to mind, often to limit free speech (and a strong repressive system).

I will admit the comparison between nations and a game is a bit far-fetched. The importance/danger is far different. However the mechanics are the same. If I someway, get banned of the game, for my opinions (if I flame I would deserve it), then I would be happy to be banned. Will be making me vote with my money, which is the only way I guess to make any opinion get through Riot. I would not even be surprised that it is because I bought a few skins that I'm not banned yet...

I have had many examples of answers which come down to this:
"If you are not with us, you're against us". It is not that people can have mixed feeling about the system. They have to be 100% agreeing or they are 'the others', the enemies. They: the flamers, as opposed to me, the zen master (who sometimes take great pleasure at taunting other people).

I didn't plead for removal of the system, actually, I do think some repressive system helps me because I hate (while I'm silent), be target of negative messages at min 2. Then I flame, the, I get reported. I didn't plead for the removal of my sanction (which again I deserve, I ask even they make sure I don't get the skin). I pleaded for reflection (which in you participate: thank you again). The system as it is now can still get you reported if you are silent.

Quote:
Proof? Or simply your feeling?

At least, according to you, I have feelings, so I still maybe are an human in your eyes. You recognize it thank you. So I might be considered some day not just as a criminal or cannon-fodder for your beloved justice system. Let's say it brings some hope.

Maybe "League of Legends" will not be renamed to "League of Justice"! :-) But I guess it is more a matter of copyright with DC comics than the 'benevolent' direction we're headed ;-)


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KiwiGeneral

Senior Member

01-17-2015

Quote:
Who are you to judge me? You're free to judge my arguments, not me. I definitely feel like you want to belittle me. Is it not something that could be considered negative attitude? ;-). Imagine the report system being applied here. This conversation could not happen if we would both be in fear of a report...

Actually thatwas meant a s compliment, unlike other toxic players, you have a conscience.

Quote:
I can't remember a dictator getting to power by saying:
- I'll be corrupt as hell
- I'll be evil as hell
- It is to grief all of you
- it is to get more power over you.

Usually they come with more seductive arguments. "It is to protect you" comes to mind, often to limit free speech (and a strong repressive system).

I will admit the comparison between nations and a game is a bit far-fetched. The importance/danger is far different. However the mechanics are the same. If I someway, get banned of the game, for my opinions (if I flame I would deserve it), then I would be happy to be banned. Will be making me vote with my money, which is the only way I guess to make any opinion get through Riot. I would not even be surprised that it is because I bought a few skins that I'm not banned yet...

1. Still Riot's game, so still have absolute power. Freedom of speech or similar doesn't apply in lol. Riot has house right.
2. You're not banned yet, because the cr system doesn't hand out bans. That's why I called your post uninformed.

Quote:
I didn't plead for removal of the system, actually, I do think some repressive system helps me because I hate (while I'm silent), be target of negative messages at min 2. Then I flame, the, I get reported. I didn't plead for the removal of my sanction (which again I deserve, I ask even they make sure I don't get the skin). I pleaded for reflection (which in you participate: thank you again). The system as it is now can still get you reported if you are silent.

But you pleaded for a system that favors flamers. You want them to be able to flame as much as they want, by being silent for a few games.
Also, getting reported isn't a problem. Getting reported doesn't get you punished, only your behaviour gets you punished.

Quote:
At least, according to you, I have feelings, so I still maybe are an human in your eyes. You recognize it thank you. So I might be considered some day not just as a criminal or cannon-fodder for your beloved justice system. Let's say it brings some hope.

So no proof.


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JagPrime

Member

01-17-2015

Quote:
Actually thatwas meant a s compliment, unlike other toxic players, you have a conscience

Then thank you.
Quote:
other toxic players

Means I'm still part of that group for you and that is chat characterizes me the most. I'm glad maybe I will escape death penalty for being slightly different though ;-)

Quote:
1. Still Riot's game, so still have absolute power. Freedom of speech or similar doesn't apply in lol. Riot has house right

If this is true. That freedom of speech is not granted in these parts => I'm out of here :-). I will never be part of something where you cannot voice your opinion. History thought us that it leads to disasters. But I need proof that freedom of speech is forbidden in here. I doubt it is. I think you can still say 'teemo is ****' (the champ, not the player using him: that is flame obviously), I hate the new game mode and not having riot taking a sanction on you. If it were so, forums would be empty for quite a while.
Generally speaking, even at work, I think we are still entitled to some critical thinking. Because 'house right'... You will notice that we're always in the 'house' of someone.

Quote:
But you pleaded for a system that favors flamers. You want them to be able to flame as much as they want


Can you quote me on that? because I can't see where. I don't plead for flame or flamers. I plead for a system with:
- More transparency
- Who makes impossible for innocents to get caught.
- Fair punishments
- Will still make room to voice an opinion in-game.

Quote:
Also, getting reported isn't a problem. Getting reported doesn't get you punished, only your behaviour gets you punished.

Still, the more reports you get, the more chances your behavior comes Under scrutiny (justified or not). My point is I really doubt Riot has then the resources to evaluate the behavior of a base of so many players. 64 million players * many games * 0.05 flamers. Many languages. Quite a lot to read to take educated decisions.

And as I said: I'm chat restricted, my reports count for naught. I'm free target for flamers. I can not answer at the risk of getting more punishment, report has no value. Only hope is someone else, not in chat restriction would report him. But if it's 3 of his friends and me in the team, he will just get away with it.


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KiwiGeneral

Senior Member

01-17-2015

Quote:
Means I'm still part of that group for you and that is chat characterizes me the most. I'm glad maybe I will escape death penalty for being slightly different though ;-)

Well, are you still restricted?

Quote:
If this is true. That freedom of speech is not granted in these parts => I'm out of here :-). I will never be part of something where you cannot voice your opinion. History thought us that it leads to disasters. But I need proof that freedom of speech is forbidden in here. I doubt it is. I think you can still say 'teemo is ****' (the champ, not the player using him: that is flame obviously), I hate the new game mode and not having riot taking a sanction on you. If it were so, forums would be empty for quite a while.
Generally speaking, even at work, I think we are still entitled to some critical thinking. Because 'house right'... You will notice that we're always in the 'house' of someone.

Of course you can voice your opinion, but freedom of speech doesn't apply in lol. Riot has the right to decide what is allowed to say and what not.

Just like in real life. If some restaurant boss doesn#t like the way you're talking, he can throw you out.*
*Differs slightly in every country, as there laws.


Quote:
Can you quote me on that? because I can't see where. I don't plead for flame or flamers. I plead for a system with:
- More transparency
- Who makes impossible for innocents to get caught.
- Fair punishments
- Will still make room to voice an opinion in-game.


Quote:
B. Disclose the certain amount/percentage of reports that trigger scrutiny ? --> evil guys will stay just Under this threshold => well it still a decrease of the total flame => WIN. And still leaves a bit of freedom to answer (hopefully in a civilized way) while you know you will get a report.

Obviously this leads to flamers flaming as much as they want, with jsut a few games of silence in between.
Also, impossible for innocent to get caught? You stated that nowhere, and that is absolutely impossible.

Quote:
Still, the more reports you get, the more chances your behavior comes Under scrutiny (justified or not)

That is correct. However that doesn't mean you get punished. Also, there is no drawbakck for you to get checked.

Quote:
My point is I really doubt Riot has then the resources to evaluate the behavior of a base of so many players. 64 million players * many games * 0.05 flamers. Many languages. Quite a lot to read to take educated decisions.

Personally? no. Impossible.
Computers that use machine learning and the data of the tribunal? Yes.

Quote:
my reports count for naught.[...] report has no value.

Wrong.
Your reports count for nothing only if you have abused the report function.
Otherwise, feel free to post your source.
Riot doesn't want anyone getting abused, even if they have abused others before.
That's why they won't remove a tool to protect you against such behaviour.

Quote:
I'm free target for flamers.
/mute
or get some willpower to ignore people.

Quote:
I can not answer at the risk of getting more punishment
What would you answer anyway? "Stop flaming please" would be fine.
But flaming back?


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JagPrime

Member

01-17-2015

I am still chat restricted, which is normal and I intend to serve my time (if I may say so) or just give up with the game.

The only thing I want guarantees on, is that if I mute everyone, every game and do not write a word, I do not risk any more punishment. That's the minimum.

But I've been playing this game for 2 years now, and I'm also more wondering what is the point of staying in a community where the only tolerated interaction with people is being parrots quoting laws.

The most dangerous people on earth are the ones that quote laws without asking any questions. Laws are never a problem for the one who thinks he respects them until law changes to forbid what they loved most.

You've been telling me I have no proof the system does not work as intended. You have no proof it works as intended.

Quote:
Don't assume I'm a troll, looking at my stats, you will see that. I respect different opinions

Besides, the discussion we have here. How do you think it would be qualified in-game?...


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KiwiGeneral

Senior Member

01-17-2015

Quote:
The only thing I want guarantees on, is that if I mute everyone, every game and do not write a word, I do not risk any more punishment. That's the minimum.

That I cannot guarantee, because until the system deems you reformed it keeps you restricted.
The fastest way to get rid of a restriction would be being positive.
Being silent will get rid of it, too, but will take some time.
That isn't done to punish reformed players further, but prevent toxic players from being silent and then keep flaming after getting unrestricted.

Quote:
You've been telling me I have no proof the system does not work as intended. You have no proof it works as intended.

Seeing several thousand reform cards back when tribunal was active and seeing that they were in a vast majority correct, and knowing the cr system takes this data into account, I see no reason to doubt it.
Esp. since several universities have studied the data of the tribunal and came to the conclusion that it was accurate.

Quote:
[QUOTE]Don't assume I'm a troll, looking at my stats, you will see that. I respect different opinions

Besides, the discussion we have here. How do you think it would be qualified in-game?...[/QUOTE]
Arguing with,prolly, a flamer.
Nothing more.


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JagPrime

Member

01-17-2015

That is the point. No guarantee. Since you end up in an endless loop of punishment you cannot get out, even remaining silent, basically makes sure you cannot enjoy the game anymore.

Let's just stop being hypocritical, just ban people and not try making as if we try to improve things.

Quote:
Esp. since several universities have studied the data of the tribunal and came to the conclusion that it was accurate

Well, I'v been at university, I worked there even. I'v seen plenty of mistakes from many people, as in any other place . Doesn't mean people that caused it were bad or stupid, but sometimes, ideas can be proven to be wrong. What sometimes makes them smarter than average is that they can recognize them and try to fix them. Research is a very iterative process. Negating issues and sticking to a wrong hypothesis hardly improves anything.

Quote:
Arguing with,prolly, a flamer.

Well if it is how you see it, let's just stop it. Let's just jump to the conclusion you wanna hear that will preserve/boost your ego, while not really lowering mine: You're good, I'm evil. I prefer not to shatter your black & white world of certainties. I don't have to do it: life has a way to teach that to everyone.

Have an happy life.


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Lady Lothiriel

Senior Member

01-18-2015

You know, it's not Kiwi's world of good and evil.

It's the categorization Riot uses to influence player behaviour. Players are sorted into categories.

There's the very toxic, the negative, the neutral and the positive players.

At the moment, you've been sorted somewhere in the first two categories. Others, like Kiwi, are still in the last two.

And while it may not say much about you as a person, it is a truth to which you yourself admitted.

About the other stuff: flamers are people who are verbally abusing other human beings who are complete strangers to them for no justifiable reason.
This has nothing to do with freedom of speech and everything with violating that other person's rights.

Every change to the system that you propose would help those who are acting like this get away without or with slighter punishments. So no, not acceptable.


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