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Poking the bear with a stick

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Mondego

Senior Member

01-16-2015

Quote:
JagPrime:
- So basically, one guy harrasses, flames to the point you feel that you need to mute it.
- You do it.
- The guy will still flame.
- Stating you muted him makes a chance to have the flamer - if flame was against you - to put an end to it. If he thinks you can still read, he may as well continue.
- So yes, stating muted is not negative, not contributing to flame or whatever.

So a guy flames, the other guy stops it and you would blame HIM ? So perverse...



Well that stands to be the point but like I mentioned in the initial post, some people, holders of the universal truth, will look into every and anything to try and turn the tables around, its so much around what was said or not said, it's estabilishing reasonable doubt that given specific conditions and state of minds, there's the possibility, no matter how slim, that things could go wrong.

Oh and I personally loved the part where @Candlelight discredits my argument by saying it is a legal standpoint, while they're referring to psychological point of view (which is but your take on the matter from an array of endless possibilities). And even then, playing your game, is it not possible to argue the exact same thing on the matter that they could see their ventilation futile as they're no longer being heard? If you're yelling at someone and he walks away, do you keep yelling? And keep in mind that any possible frustration you suffer from that would be on you.

I see too many political correct claims here


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kingkazma12

Junior Member

01-16-2015

Quote:
Candle Light:
There are plenty of holes in your logic.
First of all - the guy didn't need for you to respond to him initially to flame you. He starts flaming you cause you failed at something or he think you did, or he is just a jerk or whatever. But either way - he doesn't need a dialog to be negative, to flame, to be frustrated and to annoy people.

Stating that you muted him - doesn't add any chances that he will stop. Why would he? He didn't care about your opinion when he started to flame, why would he suddenly care about you listening to his rant now? He sort of does, but not really, only to extent to where he feels insulted by the statement like "muted", cause such statement feels like retaliation, and that's it, nothing more.

Not a single person in this Universe ever went like "Oh, he muted me, perhaps there is no point in flaming anymore, so I'll stop it" after reading "muted"-comment. How can anyone seriously believe in such bullshіt?


So to you, a flamer is an irrational human being that is typing just to type, his main role is not to disturb his counter part and as such he'll take a "Muted" as a sign of retaliation and troll even more for the sake of it, the best way to approach is to mute without saying anything.

I'm curious though, if he asks you a question in the meantime and you didn't reply because he's muted, does that stand as provocation as well? Or failing to do what he sees fit? Does that stand as retaliation as well? Or should we apologize for no dying of cancer? Or would that be retaliation as well?!

I mean, since its not plausible for it to be taken as a counter measure to promote less flaming and more playing, which is something any psychology student will atest to, then its plausible to assume that just about anything can be analysed the same. Trust me, any psychiatrist will atest to that

#Reasons #universaltruth #worship #thuglife


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StickzUu

Junior Member

01-16-2015

Quote:
Candle Light:
There are plenty of holes in your logic.
First of all - the guy didn't need for you to respond to him initially to flame you. He starts flaming you cause you failed at something or he think you did, or he is just a jerk or whatever. But either way - he doesn't need a dialog to be negative, to flame, to be frustrated and to annoy people.

Stating that you muted him - doesn't add any chances that he will stop. Why would he? He didn't care about your opinion when he started to flame, why would he suddenly care about you listening to his rant now? He sort of does, but not really, only to extent to where he feels insulted by the statement like "muted", cause such statement feels like retaliation, and that's it, nothing more.

Not a single person in this Universe ever went like "Oh, he muted me, perhaps there is no point in flaming anymore, so I'll stop it" after reading "muted"-comment. How can anyone seriously believe in such bullshіt?


If we applied your own standards to your posts in this thread, you'd probably be banned for life. That is not the way to go about this, I get what you're trying to say and I don't agree with you, but even if I did, you make a very poor case out of it


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JagPrime

Member

01-16-2015

Anyway, it is flaw by design. Now I'm in chat restriction, if I see someone flame heavily (which I don't since I mute all anyway since I got it), I could report them it would have no effect. and the guy who flames just gets away with it.

I'm playing my normal games muting all and it is just so boring to me. I have still the leavers and the feeders, flame I hear none. those games are pointless to me because I cannot rank up or see my progression as a player.

It is just making me hating the game. To the point I consider it is no longer for me. What has game mode to do with improving your behavior ? I was Silver IV with 95 LP at the time I got ranked restriction. I was not feeding, not leaving games. So I will lose lp, I'm not enjoying what I do now.

And what for people that don't play ranked ? They don't get a punishment that is as severe.

Really, I'm really willing to check Blizzard's game now.


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Mondego

Senior Member

01-16-2015

I share your opinion in a way. Riot's neglects its playerbase so much that they don't deserve the throne and as much as I hate the game, their attitude towards us makes me feel bad playing it, not to mention it promotes similar behaviour by my peers which in turn defines so much of this community


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JagPrime

Member

01-16-2015

While I definitely agree that we need some system that takes action against abuse AND that I flamed in some of my games and deserved a punishment. Here is what I think of the current situation:
1. We had one whole season without hardly anything as counter measures against bad behavior. It was troll paradise.
2. It just went to a point that it had pretty much contaminated everyone and the overall level of negativity went sky high. Because report had no effect at all and people knew, every in-game argument just escalated to its full extent.
3. Finally the game now adopts a system that tries to address that, but does it in such a bad way that it hurts more than it heals.

As positives, I see:
- It is good they care to try addressing the issues.
- We have something. Impunity is gone.

As issues I see:
A. Someone that is chat restricted should still be able to report people with a limit. Otherwise, they just become the victims of all evil behavior. They cannot answer, even in a civilized way, as the other guy will report them, no matter how kindly he says thing. And his reports won't harm the flamer(s). So the flamer will leave free as a bird.
B. If the system was able to discriminate false reports effectively, it would NOT be an issue to have restricted people retain some rights to report.
C. I got chat restricted and a skin. And I am to believe that the system is smart enough? Fail. I would even prefer you don't give it to me for the sake of coherency, because to me it is more a problem to have a faulty system than to get free stuff.
D. If some people think that saying 'muted' is offensive in any way, then maybe for some 'gg' at the end is mockery. Means that saying anything or :-) might make you get reported. Heck, in some thread I stumbled upon someone that was saying that using laugh emotes was negative attitude. If champion emotes are considered offensive why did riot implement them? We have also losers reporting winners just because they are angry and want to take revenge.
E. It's been quite a while that people know, that only verbal abuse, negative attitude, feed do actually do something, all people report in those categories.
F. Since the system believes that a certain amount of reports you got is sign enough that you deserve punishment, we're screwed.
G. Lack of transparency. How in hell does a game expect to promote professionnal e-sport when there is a repressive system with undefined/undisclosed rules that can ban pro players (I'm definitely not ;-) ) out of ranked for a significative amount of time? The day a big name is banned out of ranked without any proof that they deserve it, the system will be deemed as corrupt and unsuitable for e-sport.
H. Normal games to win + possible elo decay : it's double punishment.
I. If it is flame behavior they want to improve, then what have game modes to do with it? I can hear 'ranked is special'. And what ? In normal it is more ok to flame/leave/feed ? So it is not behavior that is at hand here.
J. The community of LOL has a very bad reputation. Sure, it has to be fixed. But now, the LOL Community, hopefully will still be able to discuss freely in forums (you never know), but will become as silent as a cemetary in-game. I for one now mute everyone and don't type anything anymore. I estimate the risk being too high to get punished again.
K. They are sure their automatic system really know how to recognize slurs in all languages?


- Suggestions:
1. Disclose the rules. What is there to fear ?
A. A list of bad words that get you tagged--> flamers might want to avoid those insults to not get caught => WIN
B. Disclose the certain amount/percentage of reports that trigger scrutiny ? --> evil guys will stay just Under this threshold => well it still a decrease of the total flame => WIN. And still leaves a bit of freedom to answer (hopefully in a civilized way) while you know you will get a report.
2. Just ban out people for a period.
A. Every sport, justice system puts away bad apples for a moment. Why try to reinvent the Wheel with different sanctions ?
B. It really sends a message.
C. Flamers out of the game can think for a while. If they just keep playing right away, while nobody teaches them how to change. Guess what, they won't. They will be limited by chat restriction, but frustration will still be growing silently.
D. It takes away the problematic person out of the game. Even if temporary, that's still a break for the others.
3. No ranked restrictions.
4. Remove chat entirely
A. We have the ping system now that supporters of new punishment system advocates is enough to play.
B. Chat only brings risks of flame.
C. You could do as for chess: any comment is considered bad.
D. No one dares to say anything about anything anyway now so it's useless and makes you use lots of resources to parse them to find wrong behavior. Waste of time, waste of energy, little benefits.
E. Some conviviality could be preserved in after game discussions, when 'stress' is less present.


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Mondego

Senior Member

01-16-2015

I do not agree with removing chat as I find it important to communicate with people when they're decent, which thank god now happens often enough in my games. We can actually discuss strategies and what to do ingame and I wouldn't like to use that, besides LOL has a good social aspect we shouldn't have to lose.

Transparency is the way to go, but being flexible would go a long way too. How many of us can say they approached Riot with righteous claims and got nothing but template responses, a message saying they couldn't do anything about it or straight out say they're right and won't reverse something? Far too many

Here's some examples:

"Got wrongfully punished" - That's impossible

"Where is what we've been promised?" - yeah... we lied about that

"I'm getting disconnected in champ selection, lost LP or getting punished for it by having to wait when it's not even my fault, plus the frustration that comes from it. You should check your client" - Our client is state of the art business, your fault

"I'm lagging and getting dc an awful lot lately" - Yeah, its your ISP man, they're on a personall vendetta against us in particular, either that or your router ports aren't set straight or some other thing is interfering on your side. Nothing's wrong here -> And yes this was BS, not to mention things apparently worked themselvs out on the customer side, because the server side was top notch

"I got randomly dc, couldn't reconnect because it said something about my firewall blocking the connection, so now I'm occasionaly leaving games and being punished for it" - Yeah man, your firewall sucks I guess. -> Again, firewalls had a way to work themselfs out after that

"You guys invented a loss prevented system for when the server is at fault which it was today, why didn't anyone get their loss prevented? - (Template answers only for this one) - Yeah man, we get your concerns but we can't afford to do that to your game for whichever reasons. Ironically enough this was the best and closest thing to support we had of all of these issues.

"Your client crashes and then I can't login because I either get the firewall warning or I get placed in queue, and even then sometimes I can't really reconnect and I'm getting reported for this" -> Yeah man, damn those firewalls

"Game froze in loading screen with no warning whatsoever and match started without me, when I realized that and tried to recconect it said something was wrong with my network connection and so I couldn't run the game at the time. After the game was over everything ran smooth again" - Well there you have it, your network connection was bad at the time, there's nothing more to it

"Hey guys, got an FPS drop since the last patch, everything running fine before and after that. No additional software was installed/uinstalled, its all the same but the patch is causing issues" - You probably installed/uinstalled something that causes the FPS drop to happen because our patch is known to be perfect when it comes out. (Not to worry though, it'll be most likely be fixed next patch and no one will ever mention it again)

"Hey, I followed your given steps to claim the free skins but it gives me an error message and I can't redeem, what's wrong/what do I do?" - (Template answers for the win) - Hey, follow the given steps and you should be able to claim the skins. Thank you for contacting us and helping us improve.

etc etc etc

Just take another approach to any of these steps and things go so much more smoother. For instance

How about: "Hey, sorry that happened, guide us through what happened so we can look into it and update the guides once we realize what's wrong" instead of "everything's fine, you can't follow simple instructions"

or

"Sorry our server is messing up and things get disruptive at peak hours. We're working on a solution, meanwhile this is all we're able to offer" instead of "Hey you should waste your time doing some traceroutes most of you won't even understand, then you stack em up and send them so we can analyse how your ISP is screwing up, we'll be sure to reprehend them for messing up, damn bastards"

I even used to make bets in college or with friends on whether or not the server's would be up on weekends and surely enough made soe bucks out of it too.

It's the very nature of proper suport and interaction that is lacking in Riot's policy, probably because they made biased calls and wrong calls in their earlier days and the community punished them for it. At some point they stopped admitting to it at all and act on deniability for pretty much everything that doesn't make them look good. This is why I'm not really supportive of the company, their latest calls just added up to this.


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Bilkyx

Junior Member

01-16-2015

Quote:
Shiwah:
Do you think people can read your mind?


Pretty sure people on this thread don't take you seriously anymore