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Poking the bear with a stick

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Mondego

Senior Member

01-14-2015

Quote:
Shiwah:
The system is based on how many games you got validly reported in.

But if you think you know more than the guy who created it, be my guest.


If you cared to read half of what was said here, and out there for that matter, you'd know that that is one of the main critics towards this system. You don't know as much as the guy who created it, matter of fact you don't know half of it, neither do I, no one does! Only thing we know for sure is that it is not what they said it to be, mainly because of undeniable facts, such as the lack of actual rules to rather have a very generalistic, ambiguous set of guidelines said to be the "Summoner's code" or because people got hammered without deserving so, or simply because no automated system on behaviour analisys is 99,99 % accurate and they don't have the manpower (or care enough for that matter) to have actual people going through cases.

It took me about 3 months and 60 mails to get a human answer to my ticket, not even the tickets get human attention but rather generalistic answer trying to cover as much problems as possible. One of my replies was even a Ctrl+C Ctrl+V about how they couldn't give me "loss forgiven" or restore any "LP" although they share my concerns. Or ended a sentence midway because they didn't Ctrl+C Ctrl+V all that well, or even close them before any sort of reply, that's the attention span the freaking ticket system gets, a system which is meant to have someone answering players concerns directly! How much attention do you think a fully automated system gets?


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Gorantharon

Senior Member

01-14-2015

Quote:
JagPrime:
Even if a majority of people involved in the tribunal condemned the 'muted' statement, they are the majority of the people reviewing tribunal cases... So it is not democratic at all. It is just the opinion of a small part of the whole LOL community. And among them, most likely people who are eager to judge and punish others, so also maybe not a representative part of the community as a whole.

And laws can be voted by a majority and still not be ethical or moral. Even less if there is not even a vote.


All of your points have been argued during the time when the Tribunal was on and disproven.
Shiwah is perfectly correct in that your point boils down to "they only press punish" and that just was not the case.
What was true, though, was that the hurdle to get reviewed by the Tribunal was pretty high, as it should be, and thus there was a very high quota of people getting punished, which makles perfect sense.

Further, your argument of the majority being potentially morally wrong does still not make the minority morally right in anyway. It's a mute point in itself, as it proves or disproves nothing only uttering doubt.


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Shiwah

Senior Member

01-14-2015

Quote:
Mondego:
Only thing we know for sure is that it is not what they said it to be

Again with the tinfoil hat? Can you explain me what Riot would gain from lying about how something created by them works?

Quote:
Mondego:
such as the lack of actual rules to rather have a very generalistic, ambiguous set of guidelines said to be the "Summoner's code"

Because Riot intended for the community to decide what is acceptable and what isn't, based on the guidelines contained in the SC. It worked for the Tribunal and the Tribunal results served as a basis for the current system.

tl;dr: you basically have a problem with the voters in the Tribunal, while blaming Riot.

Quote:
Mondego:
or because people got hammered without deserving so

Less than 10 cases out of thousands.


Quote:
Mondego:
It took me about 3 months and 60 mails to get a human answer to my ticket, not even the tickets get human attention but rather generalistic answer trying to cover as much problems as possible.

It's called "template answers", every big company uses them. If they had to give a custom answer for the same questions over and over, they would never finish reading the tickets.


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JagPrime

Member

01-14-2015

Quote:
But if you think you know more than the guy who created it, be my guest.


More importantly Shiwah, did you take part in it? Because if you didn't, from your own words the conclusion is you're opinion on it is not any more valuable than ours.


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Shiwah

Senior Member

01-14-2015

Quote:
JagPrime:
More importantly Shiwah, did you take part in it? Because if you didn't, from your own words the conclusion is you're opinion on it is not any more valuable than ours.

I read the material provided by Lyte, something that most of the complainers about the system miss to do.


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JagPrime

Member

01-14-2015

Quote:
I read the material provided by Lyte, something that most of the complainers about the system miss to do.


Since you imply I didn't (while I actually did) and since you are happy to be a valuable and obedient part of the justice system of a free game, I'll leave you enjoy this feeling of importance because all you can throw is authority arguments. I'd like to respect your opinion but you're a zealot only quoting his holy book.

I hope for you that in your daily life you won't ever find yourself at the wrong side of an unfair system, its sycophants and their host of 'because it is like this', 'because it is the ultimate good', 'I know better', 'the master cannot be wrong' arguments. Every system carries its imperfections. You just refuse to see them to feel empowered towards the early victims of a system that could be improved if one would accept that it is not perfect and can be examined and criticized. Why have a dedicated section of the forum about it in the first place if not for that purpose? Otherwise,just have the chat restriction faq and be done with it.

It's only a game. I couldn't care less even if you were the epitome of wisdom on the matter. Conclusion: for me it doesn't need to be improved, we can just fear it and be silent (after all, maybe even :-( smiley could be negative attitude). I now use /mute all (thanks for the tip again) and cross fingers that it still cannot backfire some way. By all means, if that doesn't work, I'll just switch to another game. And yes, I know I won't be missed.

Wish you well and be good while the laws and the robots interpreting them are still saying you are!


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Shiwah

Senior Member

01-14-2015

Quote:
JagPrime:
Since you imply I didn't (while I actually did)

I didn't imply anything.

Quote:
JagPrime:
Every system carries its imperfections. You just refuse to see them to feel empowered towards the early victims of a system that could be improved if one would accept that it is not perfect and can be examined and criticized.

No one here ever said it's perfect. But that it's as close to perfection as a human-built system can be - proven by Lyte's statistics. Meaning, it can still lead to erroneous judgments, and the routine checks on cases, made by humans, are there exactly to fix the issues that may arise.
But it seems that everyone who opposes the system, for one reason or another, is convinced that the opposite party is a religious organization. Which is a false impression.
Also, I love the assumptions in your statements.

Quote:
JagPrime:
Why have a dedicated section of the forum about it in the first place if not for that purpose? Otherwise,just have the chat restriction faq and be done with it.

Almost no one reads the stickied threads. Not to mention that a couple FAQs are outdated.

Also, a discussion section exists for the purpose - guess what - of discussing things. The disclaimer below the name of the section proves it: "Discuss chat restrictions here".

Quote:
JagPrime:
Wish you well and be good while the laws and the robots interpreting them are still saying you are!

See, you think it's a fully automated system, while it isn't.

Also, I got the 4-win IP boost and the mystery skin... not certainly because I was a negative player.


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Mondego

Senior Member

01-14-2015

It is a fully automated system and its not as much as acting like the counter party is a religious system, its about you defending it as such. You keep talking about statistics, what is and what's not while you're basing every and anything you said on what Lyte/Ymir said. Not facts, he didn't show facts, he said he had them but wouldn't show them because they were too complex. He said the system was nearly perfect because he conducted a study that proved such. Again, he said. Everything's about what he said while we're here talking about what happened. I hope you see the difference in that

I built Templates in my line of work and there's nothing wrong with templates answers that suit the case, not templates answers that go nowhere near the theme or that doesn't even adress what it is the customer asked. I asked on what grounds I got punished and got told at some point I couldn't get Loss Prevented on my matches while they do appreciate my concerns! Sounds like professional work to you? Or work at all? Might as well be another 99,99% accurate bot answering the tickets, you'd most likely eat it up and by then I'd be lying about this too. If you can't see anything wrong with the very basis of this system, then I'm not even sure you know what is going on.
Also the moment the customer starts asking for a real person to answer him, you don't keep him on the leash, delaying the answers more and more and keep sending him templates, sometimes the bloody same robot answer two/three times in a row. It's pathetic

As to: "Can you explain me what Riot would gain from lying about how something created by them works?" - lol? that's as basic as politics get, appearances and numbers, we're collateral damage that doesn't even make the sheets, and that's why we can't even be heard.


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bentoh

Junior Member

01-14-2015

Quote:
Shiwah:

I got the 4-win IP boost and the mystery skin... not certainly because I was a negative player.


See the prejudice in that statement? The system didn't flag you, if you were banned by tomorrow, then by your own mentality, you deserve it. You didn't do anything wrong now did ya? Too bad, the system doesn't miss, it's good like that, as good as humanly possible, much like any other thing Riot has done.

The irony is, shall you get banned and complain, there will be a Shiwah nÂș2 to tell you just how wrong you are.


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pereir

Junior Member

01-14-2015

Quote:
Shiwah:
It's called "template answers", every big company uses them. If they had to give a custom answer for the same questions over and over, they would never finish reading the tickets.



They don't read tickets because there's way too many of them, but they go through report cases. I'm gonna go ahead and guess their monthly quota of tickets isn't half of the amount of report cases they get in half a day worth of play.