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Poking the bear with a stick

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Mondego

Senior Member

01-13-2015

ahh... My only motivation at this point is to point out out pathetic Riot's (lack of) support has become. Not only have they promoted a fully automated system to veryfy human behaviour, which anyone with a pair of eyes and the slighest bit of AI knowledge would tell you can not and will not work, they also lie to the community on regular basis, with under the table sheets and made up stats, and they do so so confortably at this point that they have the audacity to say things that are simply not possible/plausible.

"Our system is 100% accurate and bulletproof" "We have actual people going over the cases where punishments were demanded", so on so forth;

Well, to my disapointment, some of this community eats this up like candy, whether its because
"Its free, they can do whatever they want, shut up"
or because
"Hey they said it happened like this, so it MUST have happened like this, its not like a corporate would cover their own ass making up stuff" (that they don't have to prove btw, because their system is so complex they couldn't possibly explain it to us, simple minded playersbase)

Just picture for a second what society would be like if it were anything like RIOT. We'd have an open to interpretation set of guidelines and everyone pointing fingers at everyone every and anything "Gave me a bad look" "Doesn't talk to me" "Eats meat and I'm a vegan" "Killed his neighbour".

Now in this beloved system all offenses are pretty much weighted the same, whether you killed your neighbour or someone on the street thinks you gave him a bad look, its all the same in the eyes of our beloved avengers.
So lets assume for a second you're neither a good nor a bad person, just a regular fellow that goes about on his own and keeps it to himsel, so much so that you could be gone and no one would notice. One fine day, on comes the police force, bursting through your front door, handing you with cuffs to a dark van and carrying you on straight to jail.

You ask repeatdly "What have I done? Why are you doing this?" but to no avail, you can't get more then " You're the lowest form of life this society has to offer, you deserve to be punished"
What was that again? Guilty until proven innocent? Right, right... And the irony is you can't even prove you're innocent because there is no accusation, no allegation, no proves, no nothing, just a veridict, and the veridict is, we condemn you god forsaken creature.

You start serving your time while making phonecalls and trying to get your case looked into but the thing is, you're a player anymore, you're now something your ex-peers despise and look down upon, you've been marked, you're no good. You can hear the beholders of the truth outside, from homeless to newborns, defending at the top of their lungs that the system is great because hey, we got Bin Laden which was definetly a case of sucess. Not only that, our governor is giving a speech at city hall saying how perfect the system is and how the city has improved thanks to our efforts, to us being so united. United we stand, divided we fall.

You can see the joy spead on peoples faces, whether it is because they actually believe the system, which shall not be cast a doubt upon until there's a couple of bars on your window's morning sunlight, because they took vengeance on the one true terrorist that was tormenting their life or simply because they simply feel safer not questioning what is and what's not.

You finally get out of jail and spend a while trying to clear up your name but its far too exhausting you know odds are that simply won't happen. You can see tons of people getting out as you do and it's only then you realize that 0,1 % people talk about isn't small at all. Or maybe they just got the numbers wrong, I don't know.

Any sort of disbelief, anger, frustration or resignation now will only become the proof you don't belong here, and before long, people will pointing their finger at you on the street, setting you up on a vicious endless cycle. You're no longer an individual, you are a crime and apparently we don't take those lightly.

And I'm not even going to talk about getting locked up again just as you're making your walk of shame down the prison aisle, or the people who got locket up because someone didn't like their smirk, or they walked by a trash can and didn't pick it up and are therefore guilty of contributing to the toxicity around.

I could go on and on about how this has happened here, me included, being an extra-nice guy regularly didn't cut it for me as I was punished by saying "muted", wrong and simple, but I do realize that doing so would be my own view of frustration and disbelief and before long I'll be getting stoned. Like the monkeys/banana/ladder experience, people will just follow up each other on this, I've seen it time and time again.

When you're finally trying to set aside what has happened as if it was some sort of bad dream, you see on TV that they're throwing bread to the pigeons, promoting defensors for their unbreakable flawless system by giving rewards to everyone who helped this society improve. Before long you see everyone getting their mailbox full of presents and smiles, even your killer-rapist neighbour is getting some while you're sitting there, being reminded that you're now a label, a crime that never was and doesn't belong.

This is not about some skin or some reward I didn't get, is not even about not being praised when I should, this is about unfair biased treatment where a single entity processes the accusation, the proofs (if any) and and the punishment instantly and you end paying for your sins, existing or not, without even knowing what they were and with no possible chance of defence because, and lets face it here, its like saying God doesn't exist at this point, sure there will be someone noding in the back of the room but even then he's most likely wearing a bracelet around his ankle.

And now that they rewarded the true perpetrators, I'm curious to see how they're going to handle this. The right way to go about this would be to make this a global gift and apologise for the mess, as removing gifts will do nothing more than promote toxicity (which surely enough Riot's very fond of, as this is what they're mostly doing nowadays). But my guess is they'll either let this be and promote something down the line so that "good" people get an additional reward, while true toxic people only get one, and the ones that are most likely wrongfully punished and or mistreatet get nothing, or promise some revision on the matter to a near future and break that promise by never mentioning it again (which appears to be the protocol).

I don't expect a Rioter to answer this, surely enough they'll read it and learn once again how displeased and betrayed I feel by a company I invested years on, but even in the forums you can notice the lack of support, you're more likely to get a red reply for a "What's your favorite movie?" then for a combined number of well thought off concerns that address the majority of the community.

I hold, among others, Lyte and Ymir personally responsible for this mess and where this is going, they represent everything wrong with this company. A note to you both, stop treating people like idiots, and that goes for calling yourselfs specialists too.

TL;DR - Justice's not blind, you are


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Shiwah

Senior Member

01-13-2015

The tinfoil hat is str0nk here.


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StickzUu

Junior Member

01-13-2015

The first one to comment is always someone seeking attention by saying something stupid O.o


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Bilkyx

Junior Member

01-13-2015

Well while I can see the logic behind your argument, I don't see the good it'll do to post this here, people either already know or they don't want to know. Besides you'll get discredited a lot because thats just who we are


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JagPrime

Member

01-13-2015

Well, first of all, thanks to Mondego for writing this. I thought it was very well written and while I don't agree 100%, I think there is a lot of merit in what he wrote and I do to, believe the system cannot be perfect.
I also thought, that actually, the herd mentality he describes also apply to many aspects of modern society. So, was an interesting read.

Quote:
why should the universities that studied the Tribunal and the CR system lie about statistics?


Quote:
"Lies, Damn lies, statistics" (Mark Twain)

And university also teach you critical thinking, debate and exchange of ideas. In this case, you only oppose an argument of authority. If you really want to debate, you have to come up with real arguments.

In my opinion, what I think is lacking in this chat restriction implementation and is often used in 'justice systems', is the notion of "provocation" and circumstances. So far, I did not read it was present. Because I often find that most in-game disputes, just escalate from a first statement.

If I am to believe that human moderators actually read the chat, I do not believe they take the time to read every comments of all players. And, I for one, would actually like to have the one that draws the 'first blood' or first curse, negative comment, whatever to be punished at least as harshly as the other(s).

Because, when the score screen shows up anyway, all players involved in the dispute will just report each other. But someone might be more responsible of the flame storm that happened. And I would like to see him punished more. But this is clearly utopic.

But it makes me believe yes, among other things, that the original post is right and that this semi-automatic system can not be just. It might address some issues but I think, in the end, people will just fear to write any message at all. And as the number of messages diminishes, the risk of catching the attention of a flamer gets higher, which will get you punished and ultimately, either you will be banned, stop playing lol or just never write any message (and even then you still could get reported randomly by someone that stays quiet and whose votes are takent into account and hope the system is just).

At the end of this new system, I expect that no one will say a word. Which is maybe what is intended. But then, a more simple solution would be to remove the chat altogether. No risk to flame or to be flamed.

What about the positive chat ? Well, we have to see how often it happens... (there we need stats if possible ;-) ) And secondly, I tend to think that player who communicate with each other friendly for gameplay either use ping or have already switched to voice chat.


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Mondego

Senior Member

01-13-2015

Quote:
JagPrime:
Well, first of all, thanks to Mondego for writing this. I thought it was very well written and while I don't agree 100%, I think there is a lot of merit in what he wrote and I do to, believe the system cannot be perfect.
I also thought, that actually, the herd mentality he describes also apply to many aspects of modern society. So, was an interesting read.




And university also teach you critical thinking, debate and exchange of ideas. In this case, you only oppose an argument of authority. If you really want to debate, you have to come up with real arguments.

In my opinion, what I think is lacking in this chat restriction implementation and is often used in 'justice systems', is the notion of "provocation" and circumstances. So far, I did not read it was present. Because I often find that most in-game disputes, just escalate from a first statement.

If I am to believe that human moderators actually read the chat, I do not believe they take the time to read every comments of all players. And, I for one, would actually like to have the one that draws the 'first blood' or first curse, negative comment, whatever to be punished at least as harshly as the other(s).

Because, when the score screen shows up anyway, all players involved in the dispute will just report each other. But someone might be more responsible of the flame storm that happened. And I would like to see him punished more. But this is clearly utopic.

But it makes me believe yes, among other things, that the original post is right and that this semi-automatic system can not be just. It might address some issues but I think, in the end, people will just fear to write any message at all. And as the number of messages diminishes, the risk of catching the attention of a flamer gets higher, which will get you punished and ultimately, either you will be banned, stop playing lol or just never write any message (and even then you still could get reported randomly by someone that stays quiet and whose votes are takent into account and hope the system is just).

At the end of this new system, I expect that no one will say a word. Which is maybe what is intended. But then, a more simple solution would be to remove the chat altogether. No risk to flame or to be flamed.

What about the positive chat ? Well, we have to see how often it happens... (there we need stats if possible ;-) ) And secondly, I tend to think that player who communicate with each other friendly for gameplay either use ping or have already switched to voice chat.



In my case I was punished because I answered players with toxic behaviour trashtalking in the chat with a clear and simple "muted" which I then applied. I did this so not only I'd stop reading what they said but to also let them know there's no point in saying anything else, as I'm not reading. After quite a few weeks and dozens of mails, and it was dozens, I'm not exagerating here, I was told I was punished because I said that, "muted", and although that wasn't as toxic as you might make it out to be, it was very "unfriednly" of me, yup, thats the word they used. I was unfriendly to people wishing me to get r*aped and die by telling them I wouldn't listen to them anymore.

Now at this point this is no big deal as they could have just said "Hey, thing is not perfect and you got flagged, but we reviewed this and well, these things happen. We apologise for the inconvenience and see you in the fields of justice" But instead I got a scavenger hunt as to how and why saying "muted" is a terrible thing to do, at which point I made a very reasonable remark much like the one above and they simply said they were right and I was to change my behaviour, matter of fact they could tell I was improving already because they've been checking up on me (Because apparently I was indeed toxic and improved behaviour after being punished which, what do you know, proved them right).

After that I took upon myself to adventure in the forums and check just how many times this has happened before, and surely enough it did, an awful lot! Yeah they broke promises before, they lied to us before, and they did us wrong time and time again, but until then, they did us all. For me, at that point, it became somewhat personal.

As for making arguments to address something more than an authority issue, I'd need proof and at this point all I have is some past threads where we were lied, nothing addressing this particular issue, because if there's one thing they improved on, it's on getting covered. They now hold all the facts, what is and what's not, and all we have against that is our words which get discredited as they come.

I'm curious as to what they'll do to the guy who recorded his games without typing a single word and still got punished, but I don't see that much advertisment on that one, it deserved more attention


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Cobaltmotari

Senior Member

01-13-2015

Quote:
Mondego:
In my case I was punished because I answered players with toxic behaviour trashtalking in the chat with a clear and simple "muted" which I then applied.


That's still a form of spreading negativity in the chat, you know. It's on the same level of futility as report-calling in that it's pointless, it only serves to spread needless dissent, and it undermines the fact that the system you're publically announcing your intention to use is designed to be used without the player being muted knowing it. There's a reason why so many regulars on this forum subscribe to the belief of "Mute, ignore, report, move on", and you've just indicated that while you definitely have the first aspect of that mantra down, you've completely fallen at the second one.

Oh, and about the first post of your thread, you lost me the moment you claimed the system was 100% automatic, when nobody's actually ever said that - Riot staff do intervene for both accuracy checks and cases which the system deems ambiguous. A lot of the rest of it comes across more as an overly-elaborate variation on the same old predictable "Riot doesn't say what I want to hear, therefore they must be lying" gambit, and believe me, the trustworthiness of Riot could be exactly the same as it is now, but I guarantee you would not be accusing Riot of lying if you agreed with them.

People aren't "blind" as you claim in that downright-cringeworthy ending to your post. It's just a simple case of people asking themselves, "Who do I trust more? The ones who created the system and have access to the data, or some random player who is obviously bitter at their punishment and ends up going the route several other punished players go by trying to play the victim by way of childish, baseless conspiracy theories"? And I'm sorry, but common sense does not dictate the latter.


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Lady Lothiriel

Senior Member

01-13-2015

@OP:

You would have done yourself and your readers a service by being more concise about the things you find problematic with the current system and with avoiding the whole conspiracy theory vibe you were giving off.

That being said, I agree with the following points:

The currents systems, while having quite a number of positive aspects, lack very much in transparency.

We all were better off back in the days when to every punishment for bad behaviour there was a reform card to look at.
That system will come back in 2015. There is nothing else to do but wait.

BUT... my extensive experience with people complaining about wrong punishments leads me to believe very strongly that with the exception of a miniscule few cases, almost all punishments are justified, whether the punished player wants to admit that or not.

As to your specific case:

I disagree with most of the regulars here about the use of "muted".

I personally think it necessary that when I feel offended or disturbed by something another player said to me and feel the need to mute him, that I at least inform that player that from now on he
- might as well stop yelling at me
- has to use pings if he wants to communicate game related information to me

I find that both fair and useful and as long as I do not include "and I also will report you", I do not think that this is at all negative. It just isn't.
(Sidenote: I would prefer to be spared that whole headache entirely by the chat system informing the other player he has been muted.)

The big caveat: this is my personal opinion and as far as I know, most people in the community feel otherwise.

I am aware of that and therefore I know that I am using "muted" at my own risk. Should I ever be chat restricted, I would not question why, I would know that it only can be because of that.

Does this seem unfair to me? Well, yes, a little. But then again, I've long since learned that I cannot always get my own way.


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Frenchie2010

Senior Member

01-14-2015

@ OP:

First, to make this clear: I read your whole post.

And now I gotta say, I disagree with almost everything you said.

You start with statements which are clearly false or out of context (Just to name the worst: Noone said the system is 100% bulletproof. You can find several wrong punishments and Lyte or Riot never denied that. The number you are looking for is more like "the system is 99% accurate&quot.

Then you dont always have a clear line of argumentation but rather throw around some random rethoric statements, like for example in your third paragraph. This is a typical behaviour you find in conspiracy theories, so Shiwahs statement with the tinfoil hats is one of the most fitting so far.

And last but not least, your real life comparison is just completely off. The situation is not fitting at all. You compare a game with a real life judical system. I think I dont even need to explain how this is just off.
(Hint: It is just a game, it is Riots game and you agreed to the EULA, which basically states: If you misbehave, we punish you as we see fit.)

One last thing, @OP and @Lady Lothiriel:
I didnt know "muted" is considered toxic. I kinda can understand where this is coming from, but I dont agree. I myself always write "Pls stop (whatever he is going, for ex 'harassing me') or else I will have to mute you" one time. And if it doesnt help I go "Sorry mate, you are muted" and then Im done with it...


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Mondego

Senior Member

01-14-2015

Sigh, let me start by just saying, yeah, they didn't say it was 100 % bulletproof on THOSE EXACT WORDS, but they said pretty much said and what they said is the following: "Its 99,99% accurate and the only reason we don't claim it's 100% its because it'd be arrogant of us to say say something can't fail, scientifically speaking" - (and saying 99,99% accurate isn't arrogant at all it seems)

Then, about the "muted" being toxic or not interpretation, well its not, it can't be, let alone when the outcome of that action doesn't promote the cycle, much on the other hand, so yeah, it was nothing more than a scavenger hunt that is now supported by the beholders of the truth I talked about. Have you ever been asked that before you knew someone got punished for it, you wouldn't say it was punishment worthy.

Undermine my argumentation for every possible flaw while refraining to address the points I made is the other problem here, my analogy is correct where you care to see it or not. And yes, it is correct to assume most of the complains came from people who actually deserve it or are otherwise frustrated with the company, and although yes, I fit the second one, that doesn't make my claims any less accurate. I'm pretty sure much of the people who never got punished look at the ones who did as if they deserve it but just imagine for a second that isn't quite the case. I'm sure you think you don't deserve it, but alas, you could be here with the rest of us tomorrow and by then you're not only toxic, you're a straight out liar with no right to be heard because the system is not wrong.

And to conclude, if you think they actually go through the reports with actual people well then, set aside their system doesn't work all that well with the premise, lets just stick to facts shall we? And my fact to you is math, do the math on a single day's worth of playing and you'll see just how right you are. Trust me, this is a 99,99 % accurate measure to assure you how wrong you are.

Oh and @Cobaltmotari, yes it was arrogant of me to say people are blind, not all people are blind, certainly not all of us, I was referring to you in particular. I won't reply you anymore as you're a dogmatic and immune to logic that contradicts what you heard first. Muted