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Sylian's Top Lane Tier List

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Aeronth

Junior Member

07-13-2014

Quote:
HeathenHammer:
You never played this mode competetively did you?

Bro, do you even lift?

Competitive play is irrelevant here, this tier list being explicitely aimed at normals/blind mode.
That being said, draft mode allows teams to ban the handful of assassins that would prevent them from picking squishies like Xerath (assuming they really couldn't be handled were they picked, which can still be debated).


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Sylian

Recruiter

07-14-2014

I thought I had posted a response a few days ago. Seems I had not, perhaps the forum ate it. No worries, I'll post one now.

Quote:
HeathenHammer:
Nautilus below Xerath, Talon in the same tier as all those bad champions(not saying they are all bad but most are)... gr8 b8 m8
Talon is still a top 3 champion and is OP. My tier 1 list currently has 15 champions, though, and some of them are closer to lower tiers than others. Talon got hurt quite a bit by the Exhaust buff, by the way. The addition of Braum was also unfortunate for Talon, since Braum can deal with Talon quite well if he uses his shield properly. Still, Talon wrecks a lot of champions and is still very OP on Dominion, just not as OP as he used to be. The map specific nerfs for Talon help a little too.

Quote:
HeathenHammer:
Nautilus, while inferior to a top tier tank like Leona can be a very useful pick.
Sure, he can be. He recently got buffed and he was high tier 3 before that, so perhaps I'll move him up to tier 2 some time. He doesn't really stand out as an outstanding tank, but the recent buff might be enough to make him tier 2.

Quote:
Xerath on the other hand gets absolutely **** on by every assasssin out there because of his lack of mobility, lack of tankiness and reliance on a slow skillshot stun to do anything.
Xerath is a long range artillery mage. Assassins generally deal quite well with mages anyway, nothing new there. I admit that Xerath is harder than average to play, but a well played Xerath can inflict a lot of damage from a long range, and his ultimate is good for finishing off stragglers and stopping caps.

Quote:
And putting stuff like Rammus and Yasuo in the same tier as Talon/Leona/Wukong is nothing short of a joke. Braum and Annie may be debatable (although I am pretty certain that Braum is terrible) but Yasuo is just a free loss.
Rammus is stronger than you think. The CDR/level rune buff really helped him, since it allows him to focus on getting items that increase his damage. Running CDR/level runes (25% at level 18, aka 3 quints and 6 glyphs), 5% CDR from masteries, and then picking up a 10% CDR item (usually Locket of the Iron Solari) gives him 40% CDR at level 18. With Sunfire Cape, Thornmail, and Sorc Boots* he'll dish out a ton of damage, and his CDs are low with all the CDR. He's strong because he does a lot of damage combined with good tankiness and a taunt, good chasing ability and, perhaps the most important aspect of all, really good mobility. Rammus can put a lot of pressure bot lane and then rush top or mid. Rammus can join fights more quickly than most champions, thus providing his team with a huge advantage.

*You could probably replace Sorc Boots if you want. Ninja Tabi might be a good option since it adds to his AD as well, and Merc's is good to get some tenacity. Sorc increases his W, R, Sunfire, and Thornmail damage.

Rammus is, in my opinion, the 3rd best tank on Dominion, in general. In some scenarios, you might favor a tier 2 tank over him, if you need AoE, for instance. In general, he's a really strong champion, and hard to deal with. He deserves to be tier 1.

As for Yasuo, he's underrated by many. I suppose he might be hard to play, but he has a really high damage potential, especially late game, is surprisingly tanky thanks to his shield, has decent cc, good burst, can wreck armor, has a wind shield, good mobility with minions... And late game he's such a beast. Oh, and his ultimate has a range of 1200. I've been in 1v2 situations that I expected to lose, but after I knock someone up I suddenly see a friendly Yasuo cutting them to pieces.

Braum is easily a top 2 tank. He's around Leona level. His damage potential is okay, he duels a lot of champions, his passive is amazing and really works well together with champions that can proc it quickly, his Q has a low CD at max rank and slows a lot and applies a passive stack, his W grants him some mobility and tankiness, his E grants him move speed and tankiness, and his R is good AoE cc. He's a beast.

If Braum has his ultimate up, he can stop many assassins before they can assassinate their target, and then apply two passive stacks quickly (autoattack + Q). His allies should then apply the other two stacks for a stun, and then they kill the assassin while they're stunned.

Quote:
HeathenHammer:
You never played this mode competetively did you?
If a mage is bad against assassins in a strongly assassin dominated meta then that is very VERY meaningful.
Assassins don't dominate the meta nearly as much these days. It was worst in Season 3, where assassins were way out of line. Season 4 changes nerfed them a bit, and then the Exhaust buff nerfed them further. Having two summoner spells helped many squishy champions, since they could opt to run Exhaust/Flash and thus won't be quite as vulnerable to assassins. Furthermore, many of the top assassins got nerfed. Kassadin got a rework which made him weaker, LeBlanc and Kha'Zix got nerfed and Talon got some map specific nerfs. And the Exhaust buff hurt Talon more than most assassins anyway. 650 range on Exhaust instead of 550 means that you're much more likely to get it off before he gap-closes, especially in a 2v2 situation. Still, his 700 range instant gapcloser combined with a silence and damage amplification is still ridiculous on Dominion. Talon is very OP still.

My point is, assassins are not as common nor as powerful in general. Fizz didn't get nerfed much, so he's still as strong as ever... But back in Season 3, Fizz wasn't really considered nearly as much high priority threat, because other assassins were even more OP, such as Kha'Zix, LeBlanc and Talon. Now they've gotten nerfed, and Fizz has risen to the top. Add some map specific nerfs to Fizz and increase the Talon map specific nerfs slightly and the assassin infested meta will be a lot less scary.

Although I suppose tripen J4 and double-pen/tripen Vi are essentially assassins. Those champions can be hard to deal with as well, although you can at least dodge J4's E+Q combo and Vi's Q.

Try running Exhaust/Flash with Xerath, that should help somewhat against assassins. And try to not let them get in range of you. Assassins are good at killing squishies, that's their job. They do that against ADC as well. You're not supposed to 1v1 assassins as Xerath.


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Sylian

Recruiter

07-14-2014

Quote:
1 8:
singed tier 4?
funny stuff
i played few games with him
and hes great tanking lots of dmg and zone out people
or just get other points, facing 1v2 or 1v3, running away and baiting them into your own team
he has also good mobility and scales pretty well with items (cause of her passive)
also tear stacks much faster in aram - its full at about 6-7mins because your q is always on
I could see him as tier 3 at best. I do think he's pretty bad, though. His cc is lacking (AoE slow that they can move out of, and a fling), his main damage forces him to run around them or hope that they chase him through the poison trail, and his mobility is meh. He needs to pop his ultimate to get any decent mobility, which is a problem for any tank. Singed may be able to do decent damage and survive for a while, but he needs to put himself at a huge risk in order to do so.

He's not actually that good at point defense. In order to break a cap, he needs to run up to someone, and in order to clear minions, he needs to run up to them. It's rather easy to poke him down. He's mostly good at defending a point if they dive him, but people should generally know that diving a tank is risky, so even then it's not that impressive.


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Dadger Ben

Senior Member

07-14-2014

Quote:
Sylian:

Try running Exhaust/Flash with Xerath, that should help somewhat against assassins. And try to not let them get in range of you. Assassins are good at killing squishies, that's their job. They do that against ADC as well. You're not supposed to 1v1 assassins as Xerath.


Flash Exhaust saves you once every 5 minutes and that is assuming you don't get killed anyway. You may have forgotten that Dominion favors highly mobile champions and Xeraths extreme skillshot reliance together with his self inflicted slow to even get to be long range just makes him die to any decent pick. Even if you exhaust someone, pulling off all your spells takes much longer than the 2.5 seconds you just bought yourself.

Yasuo is not underrated he is just simply bad. In dominion he pretty much works as a melee hypercarry. He just dies before he has 4/5 items and by that time it's usually too late. The lack of minion waves makes it almost impossible for him to gap close anyone or charge his knockup.

Braums main downside is that he is nonexistant the moment he is alone. All of his abilities need an ally to have any use because nobody will just stand next to him until he procs that stun. This is why Leona and Nautilus are so much better than him.
Even with allies around the only thing he can peel with is his ultimate because his passive takes too long to proc. That tripen J4 will blow up any squishy long before he is stunned.
So if his ult is the only thing he can peel or initiate with, why pick him over Leona/Malphite/Nautilus/Alistar. I see no justification to put him into Tier 1 just for the ability to potentially(!) block some skills every now and then.

On the notion of this list being "only for normals":

Quote:
Sylian:

This tier list applies mainly to high elo, although it should be fairly accurate for lower elos as well.


There is absolutely no point in debating a tier list for low elo because low elo can be stomped with anything, which is also why Rammus may be a good pick there (people are too bad to react to the backcap) but gets completely shut down by semi coordinated teams. Evelynn is arguably even stronger at that as well.


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Sylian

Recruiter

07-14-2014

Something I should mention is that Xerath is not that great off as a solo champion. Many long range poking champions benefit from having a team around that can peel for them and protect them. If a melee assassin can get in range of Xerath, or any high damage melee champion, he's in trouble, true. Still, if you have your team with you, Xerath can provide quite a bit for his team. Tier 2 doesn't mean "Something you'd pick in a tournament", it basically means "Good pick for normals". It's also assuming you have a team to support the pick. Vayne in a team of squishies with no peel is not tier 2, but with a proper comp she is.

Many tier 2 champions are strong in a tournament setting as well, but not all will be picked. In a tournament setting, tier 1 champs will generally be prioritized, but it depends a bit on what you need for the comp and what people can play.

Yasuo gets significantly better if you combine him with some champions that can proc his ultimate. Braum, Rammus, Sejuani, Janna, Lulu, Wukong, Alistar, Jarvan IV etc. He is hard to play, but when played right he's a real terror.

Braum is not useless alone, far from it. With a proper build, he can duel lots of champions. Wit's End is really good on him, it helps him proc his passive and do extra damage once it's procced. His Q, E, and R all work quite well alone. He can still use W as well, although that one loses some of its power when he's alone. It's usually maxed last, anyway. I'd argue that his main downsides are his mediocre burst (though his damage over time is quite good) and his lacking initiation. He needs someone else to jump in first before he can W in and cc people. He thus works quite well with champions such as Xin Zhao or Lee Sin or Jarvan IV.

With Wit's End and allies who help him attack, the passive can proc quite quickly. Add the possibility of applying it to multiple opponents and his ability to cc suddenly gets a lot more impressive.

Leona is one of the top 2 tanks, so yeah.

Malphite has meh cc outside of his ultimate. He still works quite well, but he's not nearly as strong as Braum. He's not as tanky as Braum, has worse mobility in general, and significantly worse dueling potential. Sejuani generally does his job better, but Malphite has his uses and is quite good.

Braum has much better dueling potential than Nautilus. Same with Alistar, and his damage will generally be better than Alistar's. They might peel better, but peel isn't everything. Janna beats tanks when it comes to peeling.

What makes Braum a beast is mainly doing so much damage while being so tanky, while having a good kit. Most tier 2-3 tanks will sacrifice tankiness for damage, or damage for tankiness.

Regarding low elo, it's just a note that it should apply to lower elos as well.

Oh yeah, while this isn't that much of an argument, on NA there's a thread titled "Can Yasuo and Braum please be given map specific balancing?" http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4685127

I don't agree that they need map specific balancing, though.


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Dadger Ben

Senior Member

07-14-2014

Quote:
Sylian:


Oh yeah, while this isn't that much of an argument, on NA there's a thread titled "Can Yasuo and Braum please be given map specific balancing?" .



This is not even worth debating anymore, you are wrong on so many levels while ignoring my arguments it's painful. Sure Braum has potential damage but NOONE will stand next to him to let him do it other than said AD assassins who will oneshot his ass if he builds a Wits End.

And this whole "but NA does it". You know quite well what I think about such talk.


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Jinxcited

Recruiter

07-14-2014

Yay Tier lists! I honestly don't even know if I should talk about this list, I'd have a lot to say and disagree but you probably know that anyway. If you still want my opinion on it let me know.


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Aeronth

Junior Member

07-14-2014

Nautilus can hard-engage targets from a long distance (which is good in itself), but relies on a quick, reactive follow-up from his team, otherwise he becomes utterly useless. His dps is mediocre with his shield on, and terrible if his shield breaks (which tends to happen very quickly when he's by himself). Dominion favors champions who can fight alone, that's why Nautilus doesn't deserve more than tier 3 IMO.
Braum, on the other hand, is rather bad at engaging, and takes some time to become truly efficient if he can't position himself properly with his W (which can only target allies). However, once he gets in the right place, he becomes both a godlike tank with amazing utility/CC and a brawler which can 1v1 approximately half of the champions in the game. I can't understand why Riot allowed him to proc his passive by himself, it simply makes him the best tank at dueling.

I don't know if you've tried playing assassins on Dom recently (which means: not during S3), but don't expect them to oneshot anything except mages and AD carries, and certainly not a tier 1 tank, even if he chose to buy Wit's End after Locket and Sunfire, instead of, say... Odyn's?
As Braum, you'd just press E, then /laugh as your team dismembers the fool who wasted his burst combo on you.

Oh, and finally, regarding Rammus...

Quote:
HeathenHammer:
There is absolutely no point in debating a tier list for low elo because low elo can be stomped with anything, which is also why Rammus may be a good pick there (people are too bad to react to the backcap)

No high elo player would even think of playing Rammus as a dedicated backcapper instead of a tank (which it truly excels at).
But since you play competitively, you already knew that, right?

Quote:
HeathenHammer:
This is not even worth debating anymore, you are wrong on so many levels while ignoring my arguments it's painful.

Actually, it's more like you're throwing implausible arguments based on outdated or imaginary facts, and expecting people to swallow them.


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Sylian

Recruiter

07-15-2014

Quote:
HeathenHammer:
This is not even worth debating anymore, you are wrong on so many levels while ignoring my arguments it's painful. Sure Braum has potential damage but NOONE will stand next to him to let him do it other than said AD assassins who will oneshot his ass if he builds a Wits End.
Do you even know how Braum works? If he lands a Q, he slows them, and with CDR he can keep the slow up quite well, and it's not too hard to land it multiple times with some CDR. His E gives him 10% move speed and 30-40% damage reduction, and his W gives him 15+ armor/MR. Burst champions struggle to kill him, unless they manage to attack him behind his shield, and even then he's fairly tanky.

How many times have you seen Braum in Dominion? How many times have you played Braum in Dominion?


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Sylian

Recruiter

07-22-2014

So, since it's summer and all, I'm not playing much League of Legends currently. Even so, I've still been keeping up with updates, and occasionally spectating and talking with people and watching tournament VODs.

As I mentioned, there will be an update in August. I'm going to offer sort of a mix between a preview of some of the upcoming changes, and a chance to comment on them and offer your opinion.

Some changes due to recent patches:

Maokai. As I suspected, the rework turned out to be a buff for him. Chances are I'll move him up to tier 1. Anyone objecting to this?

Alistar. I actually did get the opportunity to try him after the buff, and wow, his early game is so strong now. When he presses R, he becomes very hard to break. Going from 50% damage reduction to 70% damage reduction is a huge buff, and his early game is a lot stronger as a result. The mana buffs also help. Alistar is also a good Ardent Censer user, with his low CD AoE heal and him synergizing well with the base stats, and Ardent Censer got a 10 AP buff recently. I will likely move him up to tier 1. Does anyone object?

Skarner. Before patch 4.11, I was ready to move him up to tier 3. Then he got nerfed a bit. How significant are those changes? Is he tier 3 worthy, or were they severe enough to keep him down in tier 4?

Ziggs. He lost 5 move speed and 30 explosion trigger radius on Q. This means it'll be harder to land Q's, and his base move speed is among the bottom 15. Furthermore, 5 of those have abilities that help them move faster, so yeah... He's slow. If he uses his W to move, he loses out on cc and damage. His poke is less reliable with the lowered explosion trigger radius. Furthermore, his ultimate has a nerf on the PBE, 120 CD at all levels instead of 120/105/90. That's a pretty huge nerf, too. All in all, I suspect Ziggs will end up in tier 3 in the next update. Even if they don't launch the ultimate nerf, the Q nerf and movement speed nerf might be enough to put him in tier 3. If they do launch the ultimate nerf, he'll most likely drop to tier 3.

Some changes that are dependant on PBE changes:

Annie. If Blackfire Torch is nerfed, I suspect Annie will move down to tier 2, since her ability to burst will be weaker. She'll still be very good.

Elise. Elise got some huge nerfs on the PBE. If those go through, she'll drop to tier 2 at the very least, perhaps even to tier 3.

AP Warwick. I might just remove him from the list, because without Blackfire Torch, he's pretty much just on-hit Warwick. I doubt Blackfire Torch will be worth it on him with it having 90 sec CD.

Katarina. Her power level needs to be reevaluated with the nerfed Blackfire Torch in mind. Is she still tier 2 worthy, or will she drop to tier 3?

Nami. She's losing 5 movespeed and might have 1 second added to her W CD. This is a pretty significant nerf to her, actually. It will reduce the flow of playing Nami (no pun intended), she'll have worse mobility and her ability to fight will be much weaker. Her sustain will be a bit weaker too, as will her poking ability. On the other hand, she likes that Blackfire Torch is getting nerfed and that Fizz is getting map specific nerfs... But the earlier Athene's Unholy Grail nerfs in patch 4.10 hurt her as well, since she enjoyed the MR from Athene's. I should try her with the newly buffed Ardent Censer, perhaps that'll help her stay relevant? Anyway, I'm not sure if she'll end up in tier 2 or tier 3 if these PBE nerfs go through, thoughts?

Lulu. Wow, they sure hate Lulu. Her Q is losing the AP scaling on its slow, and her W is losing move speed duration until you max it. Either you don't max it and lost out on a lot of move speed, or you do max it and lose out on Q slow and Q damage. In either case, any Lulu that build some AP will slow less. This is pretty big. If the map specific nerfs remain, she'll probably drop to tier 3. If the map specific nerfs are reverted, she might remain in tier 2. She'll lose out on mobility and slows, but at least she'd get to use her ulti a bit more often.

Sivir. Her ultimate is getting a buff. That might help push her into tier 3.

Lee Sin. His shield will just last for 2 seconds instead of 4 seconds, and his E won't slow attack speed anymore. These are pretty significant nerfs, especially the lost attack speed slow. His ability to duel bruisers will be much weaker, and that might drop his power level quite a bit. He might end up in tier 3.

Some changes based on observation:

Malzahar. Haifhearted has showed us that Malzahar is tournament viable for top lane. His damage potential is quite good, he has a 3 second silence on a reasonably low cooldown and his ultimate really helps against champions diving him. Malzahar does have some issues, such as his squishiness, lack of anti-mobility cc outside of his ultimate, and his low mobility, but he seems to be viable. I'm not sure where I'll move him, either tier 3 or tier 2.

Kennen. You know, I'd like to discuss Kennen. I don't think he's quite as awful as people think he is. Sure, he's got a bunch of flaws, but he also has a bunch of strengths, such as pretty good AoE damage, stuns, and somewhat decent mobility. He could potentially qualify for low tier 3, although I'm not sure. What are your thoughts on him?

Teemo. Yeah, he's annoying, and vision is good, and all that, but... These days, it's really easy to find his mushrooms. Twin Shadows is a very common item, and people can get the newly updated Lightbringer to deal with his mushrooms, or the overall meh Hextech Sweeper if no other option is better. Or just suck it up and deal with it, considering the mushroom damage is much lower. If you want traps, you could play Maokai, Nidalee, or even AP Shaco instead. Teemo struggles both against high-range champions (assuming they don't miss him) and high mobility burst champions. I think he might just deserve a tier 3 spot. Thoughts?