Talon in LCS

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Dawn of Ducks

Senior Member

04-02-2014

With the current meta of heava ability power mages, isn't it a bit odd that this character isn't picked all that often?

I would be happy if someone could explain why not to me, and how Riot could make him competitive.
Thanks for answers.


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Don Eulrich

Senior Member

04-02-2014

well, the last time i saw one he had been played just horribly (focusing supports and rushing a ghostblade, cause of all his nonexisting crit/as scaling Oo). But there are just many champs that you donīt see in the LCS though they are perfectly viable, wouldnīt give it much thought.


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TheLowKing

Senior Member

04-02-2014

The most popular AP mids in the LCS are Gragas and Orianna.

Orianna is an ok matchup, but Gragas is horrible for Talon. He has sustain, much better waveclear, can outpoke him, is tanky, does just as much damage and is more useful in teamfights. Ive seen plenty of guides put him as one of the hardest lanes.

Assasins have also fallen out of favour a bit compared to last season (where he WAS picked in the LCS). Talon is decent but he doesn't have the resets that someone like Kha has, that make them so strong.

Whether Talon needs a buff is a subject of debate, he is probably a bit weak. However, Riot have mentioned previously that they are very cautious because his silence-gapcloser and fast burst get OP very swiftly if you increase his damage too much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Eulrich View Post
well, the last time i saw one he had been played just horribly (focusing supports and rushing a ghostblade, cause of all his nonexisting crit/as scaling Oo)
Ghostblade is a very viable item on Talon, even core build. Plenty of the Top talon players build it. You don't get it for the crit, you get it because it builds out of brutaliser (an item you rush on Talon) and for the 20 armour pen plus the active.


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LessTalkMorePlay

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Why talon when u can just pick zed?


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Ic3f34r

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLowKing View Post

Orianna is an ok matchup, but Gragas is horrible for Talon. He has sustain, much better waveclear, can outpoke him, is tanky, does just as much damage and is more useful in teamfights. Ive seen plenty of guides put him as one of the hardest lanes.
Gragas is horrible for almost everyone...


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TheLowKing

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ic3f34r View Post
Gragas is horrible for almost everyone...
Yes but the OP was suggesting that Talon should be taken because he counters AP mages. Since he is only ok against orianna and suffers hard against Gragas that does not really apply.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LessTalkMorePlay View Post
Why talon when u can just pick zed?
Faster burst, not countered by Zhonya's/Cleanse as heavily, has a silence, counters Zed himself.


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KillThatSOB

Senior Member

04-02-2014

he can be easily countered in teamfights .... u cant go in as talon to assassinate the adc when hes surrounded by 4 , theyll just place an invisible ward at every teamfight.
In my opinion talon isnt viable after platinum. In bronze silver and gold the teamfights arent as hardcore as in above ( diamonds etc)
for assassins zed is prefered because he has more mobility with his shadows. diana because u can build her offtank.


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Don Eulrich

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by LessTalkMorePlay View Post
Why talon when u can just pick zed?
faster burst and more aoe, if the opponent has a rather squishy setup Talon is really a damn strong pick, best combined with some good cleanup like kha or an overall divecomp. He also counter many champs that give Zed real trouble like e.g. Kayle, as he can allow his team to oneshot her while sheīs silenced, so she cannot counter the burst with her ultimate (same for the likes of Ahri, she wonīt step away till sheīs dead if things go well with Talon).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLowKing View Post
Ghostblade is a very viable item on Talon, even core build. Plenty of the Top talon players build it. You don't get it for the crit, you get it because it builds out of brutaliser (an item you rush on Talon) and for the 20 armour pen plus the active.
its just very inefficient, you wonīt use the crit at all (because you donīt buy other crit items on Talon, and to utilize 15%crit would be sheer luck)and the attackspeed not too much. The movementspeed isnīt all that needed either, his ult already has a ms steroid for repositioning, and to engage he uses his step.
A Blackcleaver just does so much more for him, especially considering he can apply 4 arp-stacks to the whole opponent team very fast (w-r-r-w), helping out all his teammates to clean up what he left standing after his initial burst - you want Talon for his AoE, not to autoattack some singled out target down...for sth. like this Zed is 100times stronger.


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TheLowKing

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Eulrich View Post
its just very inefficient, you wonīt use the crit at all (because you donīt buy other crit items on Talon, and to utilize 15%crit would be sheer luck)and the attackspeed not too much.
That depends on the build, ive seen plenty of top players who build crit on him (IE). The attack speed is actually the least useful thing about the item, it slightly increases the speed of the autoattacks in the combo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Eulrich View Post
The movementspeed isnīt all that needed either, his ult already has a ms steroid for repositioning, and to engage he uses his step.
The movementspeed is huge for catching people, escaping or just roaming. Plus you really want to use his ult for the damage rather than just the movement speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Eulrich View Post
A Blackcleaver just does so much more for him, especially considering he can apply 4 arp-stacks to the whole opponent team very fast (w-r-r-w),
You have to be very lucky to hit their entire team with a W (though his ult is much easier). Plus, early game you benefit much more from the Youmuu's than the black cleaver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Eulrich View Post
helping out all his teammates to clean up what he left standing after his initial burst - you want Talon for his AoE, not to autoattack some singled out target down...for sth. like this Zed is 100times stronger.
You want Talon for the assassinations, if you want AOE there are plenty of other champions. His AOE is great, but it isn't going to win a teamfight alone.

In fact, considering a large portion of his combo damage comes from autoattacking, he is there to autoattack.


Btw, as I mentioned, look up the top Talon players. Try explaining to Diamond 1 Talon mains that their build is wrong.


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Don Eulrich

Senior Member

04-02-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLowKing View Post
[...]

You want Talon for the assassinations, if you want AOE there are plenty of other champions. His AOE is great, but it isn't going to win a teamfight alone.
Well, there are many champs that can assassinate better than Talon, his strenghts really is that he can get off his burst while jumping into 4people and then maybe die, but win the teamfight eventually if his team follows up. If you just want an assassin iīd prefer Zed over Talon any day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLowKing View Post
In fact, considering a large portion of his combo damage comes from autoattacking, he is there to autoattack.
Yea, it does - but as his q resets his autoattack his combo does profit a lot more from ad than from as, and crit only getīs "reliable" after you build quiet a good amount of it, which is usually not what you want to have on an assassin (as you really should know 100% if you can go in and get the kill or if you should prey in the shadows some more and not just pray for some lucky crits).


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLowKing View Post
Btw, as I mentioned, look up the top Talon players. Try explaining to Diamond 1 Talon mains that their build is wrong.
Well, if there are good arguments for sth. it doesnīt matter if its a Bronze 5 or a challenger stating them. And Soloq doesnīt tell too much about a champ performing in a real 5v5 environment with some proper coordination.


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