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Undeath, Terror and Acid Hunters: Let's talk Urgot First Riot Post

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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

07-05-2014

Hey all.

Long delayed update here and a change of plans. My original hope had been that we'd be able to rework Urgot's gameplay without needing substantial art support. That's proven to be too optimistic however, with the sort of changes we'd like to make including some new skills and other functionality changes that need animation, spell effects, sound and potentially model changes. Urgot is on our list for such a full rework, that's a ways off though (Sion's up next for major reworks, and we've been tentatively discussing Poppy as an option for after that, though that's not yet certain). As a result the new plan's to do some much shorter term work on Urgot that, while it won't fix everything, should help out on some of his issues and get him into a better spot until we're free to do larger scale work on him.

That shorter term work's potentially going to be split into a couple of patches. The first (and I'm guessing that would be around patch 4.15, though not certain on that yet) focusing on some general cleanup and quality of life, with a possible follow up set of changes to add in a bit more power if appropriate.

Tentative list of changes we're looking at for that first patch (note, not yet in testing, so may well change):

General

Basic attack missile speed increased to 1600 (from 1300)
- Given Urgot's short attack range a more responsive auto attack's appropriate for the risk he's often putting himself in
Recommended item update
Some minor visual effects clean up


Q

Acid Hunters now check for Noxian Corrosive Charge on both start and end of Acid Hunter cast
- Currently only checks at start of cast, penalizing swift follow up shots after firing the E at long range and attempts to sneak in a final homing shot as Noxian Corrosive Charge is close to expiring)
Mana cost increased to 50 (from 40), half mana cost refunded on kill
- Primary goal here is to punish Urgot less for last hitting with Acid Hunters when he needs to. Slight increase in cost to maintain a bit more harass cost, though still aiming to have this be a net buff to Urgot's mana usage.


R

CD reduced to 120/110/100 (from 120)
- Adding a bit of late game power, without increasing his potential lane bully case
Mana cost reduced to 100 (from 120)
- Standardization with standard ult mana cost


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Saul gank pls

Recruiter

07-05-2014

Quote:
Meddler:
Hey all.

Long delayed update here and a change of plans. My original hope had been that we'd be able to rework Urgot's gameplay...


Yay. Urgot got some love.


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Master Mangina

Senior Member

07-05-2014

I think the main issue really is that his ult doesn't fit the rest of his kit or his stats. It would be an incredible initiation tool for a pure tank, but he doesn't seem to work as 100% tank. As an ADC his ult is borderline useless. Either completely change his ult into an ult suitable for an ADC or redesign him around the ult, turning him into a much more effective tank.

Also, that guy needs a visual upgrade because he looks extremely dated (also ugly, but that's kinda the point of Urgot I guess)


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Megahug0

Senior Member

07-05-2014

Quote:
Meddler:
Hey all.

Long delayed update here and a change of plans. My original hope had been that we'd be able to rework Urgot's gameplay without needing substantial art support. That's proven to be too optimistic however, with the sort of changes we'd like to make including some new skills and other functionality changes that need animation, spell effects, sound and potentially model changes. Urgot is on our list for such a full rework, that's a ways off though (Sion's up next for major reworks, and we've been tentatively discussing Poppy as an option for after that, though that's not yet certain). As a result the new plan's to do some much shorter term work on Urgot that, while it won't fix everything, should help out on some of his issues and get him into a better spot until we're free to do larger scale work on him.

That shorter term work's potentially going to be split into a couple of patches. The first (and I'm guessing that would be around patch 4.15, though not certain on that yet) focusing on some general cleanup and quality of life, with a possible follow up set of changes to add in a bit more power if appropriate.

Tentative list of changes we're looking at for that first patch (note, not yet in testing, so may well change):

General

Basic attack missile speed increased to 1600 (from 1300)
- Given Urgot's short attack range a more responsive auto attack's appropriate for the risk he's often putting himself in
Recommended item update
Some minor visual effects clean up


Q

Acid Hunters now check for Noxian Corrosive Charge on both start and end of Acid Hunter cast
- Currently only checks at start of cast, penalizing swift follow up shots after firing the E at long range and attempts to sneak in a final homing shot as Noxian Corrosive Charge is close to expiring)
Mana cost increased to 50 (from 40), half mana cost refunded on kill
- Primary goal here is to punish Urgot less for last hitting with Acid Hunters when he needs to. Slight increase in cost to maintain a bit more harass cost, though still aiming to have this be a net buff to Urgot's mana usage.


R

CD reduced to 120/110/100 (from 120)
- Adding a bit of late game power, without increasing his potential lane bully case
Mana cost reduced to 100 (from 120)
- Standardization with standard ult mana cost

That's not enough to make urgot viable, i'm afraid. Hurts his poking when played top too :/


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Beats29

Senior Member

07-05-2014

Quote:
Meddler:
Hey all.

Long delayed update here and a change of plans. My original hope had been that we'd be able to rework Urgot's gameplay without needing substantial art support. That's proven to be too optimistic however, with the sort of changes we'd like to make including some new skills and other functionality changes that need animation, spell effects, sound and potentially model changes. Urgot is on our list for such a full rework, that's a ways off though (Sion's up next for major reworks, and we've been tentatively discussing Poppy as an option for after that, though that's not yet certain). As a result the new plan's to do some much shorter term work on Urgot that, while it won't fix everything, should help out on some of his issues and get him into a better spot until we're free to do larger scale work on him.

That shorter term work's potentially going to be split into a couple of patches. The first (and I'm guessing that would be around patch 4.15, though not certain on that yet) focusing on some general cleanup and quality of life, with a possible follow up set of changes to add in a bit more power if appropriate.

Tentative list of changes we're looking at for that first patch (note, not yet in testing, so may well change):

General

Basic attack missile speed increased to 1600 (from 1300)
- Given Urgot's short attack range a more responsive auto attack's appropriate for the risk he's often putting himself in
Recommended item update
Some minor visual effects clean up


Q

Acid Hunters now check for Noxian Corrosive Charge on both start and end of Acid Hunter cast
- Currently only checks at start of cast, penalizing swift follow up shots after firing the E at long range and attempts to sneak in a final homing shot as Noxian Corrosive Charge is close to expiring)
Mana cost increased to 50 (from 40), half mana cost refunded on kill
- Primary goal here is to punish Urgot less for last hitting with Acid Hunters when he needs to. Slight increase in cost to maintain a bit more harass cost, though still aiming to have this be a net buff to Urgot's mana usage.


R

CD reduced to 120/110/100 (from 120)
- Adding a bit of late game power, without increasing his potential lane bully case
Mana cost reduced to 100 (from 120)
- Standardization with standard ult mana cost


I wanna thank you because, unlike some rioters, you never forgot to mention this kind of stuff on EuW and OCE. That shows what kind of person you are and how hardworking and friendly you are towards the comunity.

I hope that, when the changes are made, and if the rework doesn't get as well as it should, that people don't get mad at you and that they don't forget the respect you had towards us. I say because unfortunely EuW has some kind of bad opinion towards Riot in general because of the reasons we all know... But oh well, those are different matters.

I'm also looking forward to see your new champion design. Lissandra (pls fix her ultimate ) and Elise are both of my mains and I love them be it terms of playing, being on artstyle. I'm hoping the next one will be as exciting as those.


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scapheap

Senior Member

07-05-2014

Quote:
megahug0:
That's not enough to make urgot viable, i'm afraid. Hurts his poking when played top too :/

a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step-Chinese philosopher Laozi(c 604 bc - c 531 bc)

Let them play round to see how much of a rework he truly need. The fix may be simpler then anyone realize. (most likely not, but...)


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Shade Of Wolf

Senior Member

07-05-2014

Urgot's short range cripples him in lane when he plays ADC, and isn't quite safe enough kit-wise to be a Quinn/Teemo/Kennen-like top that annoys the **** out of melee champs.
However, with that said, I think if Urgot say, had equal range to other adcs (take Miss Fortune/Lucian range for example) he would be EXTREMELY broken. His trading potential would be amazing because of the damage reduction and the ability to give as much aa's as he receives, he has a shield too, then his locked on acid-hunters make sure that he will always come out on top.
His ult, I feel is much like the problem many people have with Quinn; he is classed as a marksman, who often have to build squishy, yet have an ult that requires them to enter suicide mode (like my poor Diana QQ). Ofc he gets the bonus tankiness, but other than that it feels lacklustre.
Thematically it feels like half of Urgot's kit is a damage soaking-damage reducing tank to annoy his enemies, then the other half is the whole acid thing (Which I like a lot).
I think to be viable Urgot needs some buffs to his range, and maybe attack speed (I personally think he has a very nice and simple aa animation that makes it easy to last hit, but that could just be personal preference). That said, his ult, and shield would need some serious nerfing/changes to turn him into an ADC.

On the other hand, I could easily see Urgot as more of a Supportive midlaner, or a high risk-high reward toplaner.
Itemization is strange on Urgot...atm I see lots (of the few that play him lol) build arm pen and armor, with a muramana. Lifesteal is kind of a wasted stat on him when he relies so much on his acid hunters for spammable damage. Until recently, Bloodthirster rush was the go-to to win lane as an ADC, and Urgot never seemed to benefit from that (much like Tristana, where IE rush was favoured due to her Q, but usually caused her to lose lane).
Then comes the problem of an ADC that can build tanky AND due A LOT of spammable damage.

tl;dr
Urgot's low range is the only thing keeping him from being completely broken (imo).


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Sarchiapon

Senior Member

07-05-2014

I have learned that, barring exceptional positioning and reflexes, you can't rely only on E + Q with Urgot. Early, probably you can, but late you will need to do some ADC work and AA someone, and, at that point, you can't afford to be slow. You need at least one AS item, better if paired with berserker boots.

And that adds to the already lost list of items Urgot need: Starting Tear, AD, CDR, Armor.

I doubt that a penalization of 10 mana on his Q can repay for the expanded window of the homing system (if i get it straight). Now we can maybe sneak 4 Q in a level 2 E without CDR, instead of 3? That would be good, but difficult and costly. Against a wary opponent, one will probably ends up hitting two Q and pay 20 mana more, and that's it. It's pratically a nerf to Urgot early. The help on farming is good, but not really necessary. If one want to take the "burden" of playing Urgot despite his many issues, then you can't afford to spam skills to farm. You should learn to do it the hard way, as anyone with hungry mana champs should.

The Mana and CD Reduction on R is probably meaningless. I have never experience low mana in mid/late, and the CD was never an issue anyway, considering that urgot builds CDR. Still, it may be good to have it 20 seconds early. Despite most people here, i REALLY like Urgot's ult, i have made amusing plays with it, and by all means if Urgot got really to be changed so extensively, the swap on his ult MUST stay. Urgot would not be Urgot without it.


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Beer Wulf

Senior Member

07-06-2014

Make Urgot's ulti move a targeted person to a designated spot, instead of making Urgot himself swap places...

But then again, it's effectively a pull function that'd make it near similar to any other hooking champion...


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Sarchiapon

Senior Member

07-06-2014

Quote:
Beer Wulf:
Make Urgot's ulti move a targeted person to a designated spot, instead of making Urgot himself swap places...

But then again, it's effectively a pull function that'd make it near similar to any other hooking champion...


When thinking about Urgot'ult, people likely imagine that Urgot can't use it in a straight TF, and the fact that he can actually use it for clean up (swapping people who try to escape or are out of position, or are ulting and you want to displace or interrupt) is not enough.

IMHO, anyway, this go under the "not just press R and win" factor of a lot of ultimates, so it's fine by me.