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Sivir relaunch heads to PBE

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SensïBen

Senior Member

10-13-2013

Gimme 4 hits on richochet extra attackspeed and i´m a happy bunny.


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Markus Vakarian

Senior Member

10-13-2013

Heavy heavy nerf

Q) Like before,nothing to say

W) With passive on the ulti it's good...faster hits but not bonus AD anymore (remember we are considering R passive in to judge Ricochet

E) Same as before

R) No more AS,just movement....is sivir a support now??It will be ok if it had a normal CD since you will use it only for utility. Kassadin's Riftwalk does damage but it's more an utility (gap closer and escape). With that kind of CD the ulti is ok. Also lower as passive bonus like it was on previous passive but boost AS per level.

Still 500 range for a champion with no escape
Q and W can't be used for harass since they gave reduced damage to secondary targets and and W bounce range is very short
Th only buff for fights is the AS boost when Ricochet is active and that's only for 3 shots. While with previous ulti you had AS boost for 10 seconds and having 20% more AS is not enough to close the gap.Also because you don't have that 80 AD bonus on first shot too.AS per levl now is lower than supports',mybe like Jinx (1% per level) but Jinx get AS passively when uising minigun,not only when she uses "something"


Only good things are the "no cost" on E and R and the Visual Upgrade


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EoN Illusions

Senior Member

10-14-2013

Riot you still did not adress her issues

-Very low range for no reward
-Clunky unresponsive auto attacks
-Underwhelming single target damage

Please :

Give her a range like ashe with this kit, arround 600
Give her rsponsive auto attacks, this right now is a bane for kiting
Give mana cost back on spellshield to reward good sivir players, because good or bad sivirs have always been recognized at how well they use their spellshield, now bad sivir players can keep spamming spellshield randomly, but they wont oom from it.
Give her steroids and single target damage. At 500 range if you keep her kit like that she can't kite or kill any bruiser/tank. All you have is boomerang blade that scales terribly into late game and ricochet.
Auto, ricochet to reset, auto, boomerang, gg you are out of damage after 3 autos.

Every adc (except maybe quinn) does what sivir does but better. As she is right now, i only see her as a semi support in a team where she uses her ult and her team does the job while she deals some superficial damage. The best way to deal damage with her would be to stack 5 BT's and a last wisper and only teamfight with ult.

What is good on PBE :

Voiceover
Art
Warrior princess sivir skin

EDIT: I feel that the whole relaunch is more of a nerf than something else, because now you are stuck with your weak kit AND can't significantly buff your team anymore.


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Tsuyoku

Senior Member

10-14-2013

Just wonder if Morello and Co also read in the EU-Forum.
It looks like they still don't understand Sivir's problem. They're playing around with her kit without improving her current situation.

- Her damage is totally fine as it is.
- She's more support oriented. Why not.
- Riot wants to keep her 500 range. Why not.

but
- She is Squishy.
- She got no CC. no slow. no stun. no snare.
- She got no escape. no dash. no jump.


Which makes her Highly risky to play with a poor reward. (not like bringing her in 500range in the teamfight would bring insane burst for the team).

I really don't care about how much ricochet she can do, or whatever AS steroid you put on her. Thing is. You force a squishy champ with no escape to come very close to a tf.

See what you did with Quinn and Urgot? almost nobody is playing them.
Although Urgot is much more tanky and got some form of CC. Quinn can create distance with her E, disable and slow. Sivir still has nothing.
And don't mention her Shield please. It's cool in lane phase but almost useless in a teamfight.

And then her Ulti just like Quinn, is more likely used as an escape skill.
Unless you really catch someone far out of position, using their ulti to go inside a tf is just pure suicide.

Suggestion:
- Play around with her ricochet if you want.
- Just make her more tanky so she can survive a melee fight.
- Change her passives and give her bonus def/mr like Graves and Urgot. or
- Change her shield to a damage absorption shield scaled on her AD. spell immuned while the shield is active. Make it mana costy if you want. Her mana has never been a real problem. Her problem is her survivability


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MrZakalwe

Senior Member

10-14-2013

Hello to anybody who bothers to read this (thank you!)

gotta try, right?

Get the fluffy bits over with first.

1) Visuals.
These are superb, the legendary triangle feet are gone and so is the strange iron hard hair. Autoattack animation looks good, idle animations look good, spell animations look good (although the boomarangs could use some work when it returns to you) and the ultimate trail looks simply awesome on Pax Sivir (I get to pretend to be a lightcycle!).

2) Audio.
Voiceover is excellent but spell sounds are a little hit or miss. Handbag taunt is perfect.

Now for the less fluffy.

3) Kit.
Base stats - Slow projectile speed and very slow attack speed conspire to make last hitting with Sivir a nightmare and makes cancelling her attack animation just before the projectile is released very easy. I'd call this a big issue as much of what a marksman does will sink or swin based on your autoattacks, making them unresponsive and clumsy harms every stage in the game as well as making your passive much less effective in the early levels. 500 range.

Passive - I love this passive, it allows you to stick to people, allows you to kite those few bruisers that dont have spammable gapclosers and most importantly (in most cases) helps with dodging skillshots during teamfights. This passive has been made noticibly weaker early game by the reduction in attack speed.

Q - The same Q we know and love, high damage, long range with massive damage dropoff for hitting multiple targets strongly rewarding direct hits. Tricky to use effectively, excellent counterplay, scales well into midgame (although falls off lategame), great ability in general.

W - Feels like a poor excuse for a steroid. Ruunans Hurricane is a pretty poor item because to access the damage bonus you rely on multiple enemies standing very close to each other. My issue with this spell is that in a perfect use case it makes your damage output batsh*t crazy while in more likely scenarios (especially once people learn to spread out) it is much less impressive and you will never be able to tune it so that if it isn't OP hitting most of the enemy team, it wont be pretty much useless hitting 2 and nearly entirely useless 1v1; a 3 attack attack speed buff every 5+ seconds doesn't really cut it especially when her base stats are bad enough that attack speed is now a weak stat on her anyway.

Removal of base damage and less frequent resets really hurt her single target damage that was already meh. Addition of attack speed from the ultimate does not make up for the loss of the 10 second attack speed buff lost from the old ulti along with missing base attack speed.

E - This may sound like as odd request from a Sivir player but I'd like to see the mana cost return to the spellshield as there is a great deal of play surrounding this ability and a good amount of that comes from it's mana cost. Play Taric or Nunu against Sivir and Dazzle/Snowball a minion right next to her to burn her mana (9/10 they will spellshield) leading to a mindgame between support and Sivir player that is fun from both sides.

Now she loses nothing but the cooldown for losing the game meaning you are tying up power that could be used to make her a better markman while also removing a good amount of her play in lane.

Also this ability is still bugged- PBE tested Hecarims ult will still fear me if I spellshield it and his charge will still knock me back. I quit playing Sivir originally when Hecarim was pick/ban as these bugs were killing me more often than good enemy plays or mistakes on my part. 'Great I got feared to me death again by a spell I spellshielded' is not a fun play pattern unless you are the Hecarim. Fix it please.

R (active) - I actually like the new R, the initial burst of speed is great for catching people off guard and can make jungler ganks very, very fun. Great for escaping, great for engaging and if your support gets shurelias as well some crazy stuff happens.

R (Passive) - meh, too short lived, too low impact, basically makes you into a normal ADC for 3 attacks- you don't really feel a big difference bwteeen ult levels. Without extending Ricochet to 5 or more attacks this passive will never feel powerful (however effective it really is).

4) Item synergy.
This is the area where Sivir was hit hardest; she just doesn't really suit many items in the game anymore;

Trinity force: loss of low cooldown W resets mean she can no longer use the sheen procs nearly as well (which is a double shame because the recent phage changes work really well with her passive).

Infinity Edge: Loss of base damage on your W that could crit and loss of attack speed steroids make a conventional crit build kinda rubbish on her now meaning she will never be able to itemise effectively for single target damage.

Blade of the Ruined king: she needs AD more than attack speed and the bounces do not proc on-hit effects and she does not scale well with attack speed making this item weak on her.

(NOTE: the removal of Trinity and BotRK as good itemisation choices removes the two best ADC kiting items currently available.)

So what she wants is AD/armour pen and CDR.

Black cleaver?: If you are dealing a lot of physical damage Last Whisper is pretty much universally better than cleaver unless you stack them and I doubt stacking them would be optimal on Sivir with her unremarkable ratios.

So you are pretty much left with Bloodthirster as your one ideal item.

5) Conclusion/ TLDR
Her new kit works wonderfully in lane (ricochets EVERYWHERE) but relies on the other team positioning badly (clustering up) and then ignoring you to function in teamfights.

Her mana changes on the E remove a whole load of play in lane.

She doesn't really suit the items currently in the game; I don't know if this means you have secret season 4 items that will solve this last issue or if it just hasn't been thought out.

FIX HECARIM AND SPELLSHIELDS.

In live once she gets a bit of AD she can clear a wave with a Q and a W meaning adding waveclear is mostly wasted (can't kill more than 100% of a wave) and this is a feat many other carrys can do effortlessly.

Jinx can have something close to Ricochet on every shot at 700 range with a 10% damage steroid, new and old Sivir feel dramatically outclassed by her as she seems to fill the same niche more safely and more effectively.

6) Recommendations.
- reduce the number of attacks that Ricochet functions on to 2 then reduce it's cooldown to improve Synergy with Trinity force; this would give Sivir players the option of having reasonable single target damage output against enemy teams that refused to bunch up.

- return the mana cost to her E and use the power elsewhere.

- do something to make her autoattacks feel better.

Plucked from the air idea to help her survive her range Return the mana cost to the spellshield, reduce it's duration, remove the mana return mechanic and add percentage damage reduction for a few seconds after the spellshield is popped giving her the niche of being a burst resistant adc- with her short range she needs something to help her live


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MrZakalwe

Senior Member

10-14-2013

Quote:
Tsuyoku:
Her mana has never been a real problem. Her problem is her survivability

Really? I've found her quite mana hungry across an extended fight or laning.


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zFlash96

Member

10-14-2013

Imo Sivir does not need -even a small- rework but buffs. Her mechanics are fine. She is just weak. She is more squishy AND more risky than most other ADCs, with low range, no CC and no escape. The only thing that compensated these flaws were her damage and her utility.

The nerf to her attack speed litterally destroys her single-target DPS. In exchange, she gains some more AoE damage power. But to get that damage, her 3 Ricochets have to hit all 5 enemy champions. Otherwise, her damage is just nerfed. With such a low single-target DPS, it will take forever to kill tanks and bruisers who are already a big problem when you have no escape. It's also a huge nerf for duels (plus she loses the bonus damage on Ricochet) and for taking down sensible objectives quickly (like turrets and baron, wasn't that meant to be one of her specialities?).

The ult nerf is damn huge too. No more AS team steroid. Basically is just a better Jayce's E now. Also, that 80% AS passive is dumb: PBE Sivir with Ricochet has LESS attack speed than Live Sivir with ult! (and her ultimate has never been a restriction, it has low cd/long duration, it is like always available)

So in fact, Sivir deals WAY less damage than before, and even Ricochet+ult can't make her reach her old DPS. Also, Ricochet did (and still does) reset attacks, which means:
- The new ult passive only gives AS for 2 attacks, not 3, since the first is a reset anyways. So we can consider than the ult passive gives just enough time to get 1 additional attack. This is a total of 2 additional attacks.
- However, in the same time, Live Sivir can cast Ricochet TWICE, resetting the timer TWICE, and therefore getting also 2 additional attacks.
- So actually, PBE Sivir WITHOUT ult has more AS than Live Sivir WITH Ricochet.
- Your answer seems to be "Build CDR". OK. So what do I build? BC? Zephyr? There is no viable DPS/CDR item. Where is my damage then?



Imo there are 2 different solutions to fix Sivir:
- Keep her kit as it is now. Just give her the power to compensate her low range and lack of cc/escape, i.e. buff her teamfight power (damage and survivability).
- Let her be a true full-AoE-ADC. Not a pseudo-AoE-ADC. Take the plunge. Give her that old Ricochet again.



For the first case, some buffs would be:

- Increase her base armor and her base health regeneration (wtf? the lowest in the game after Rengar?) to reduce her vulnerability to aa-harass in lane, especially with Cait and Jinx everywhere.
- Keep the increased AD per level but don't butcher her AS. More DPS to reward that ****ty range.
- Change Q's CD to 11-7 from 9. Sometimes during teamfights, when it is too dangerous to come close, Sivir can barely do more than Q'ing from the back. The lower CD late game would make that damage more consistent.
- Reduce Q's damage to 60-220 (+1 bonus AD) (+0.5 AP) but make its damage reduction reset at max range like Draven's ult (max-range-double-damage is still the same, but hitting several enemies in teamfight will deal a bit more damage)
- Change W's CD to 6-2 from 7-3. Optimal TF procs without CDR. Imo TF Sivir is funnier than CDR Sivir, and it offers more interesting builds. Make its damage reduction only affect champions so she can push a little bit faster. Remove the bounce cap if you want, it will barely affect her anyways.
- The mana changes on her E are not needed. A good Sivir does not waste her E anyways. If you really want to remove the cost, at least let the mana gain be 75 at all ranks instead of 60-100. If you need mana, you need it in lane, not at level 18.
- Remove that FREAKING ULT CAST TIME.
- Keep the ult giving 60% movement speed decaying to 20% over 4 seconds and the decreased late game cd.
- But for god's sake, KEEP THAT AS TEAM STEROID. It is just too VITAL.


PS:
Making her W not reduce per hit will not work. It is not possible.
- If you balance her around single-target DPS, her AoE DPS would become too strong and maybe OP.
- If you balance her around AoE DPS (which seems to be the case with these changes), then you have to reduce her single-target DPS so much that she will just become even weaker.
- The primary role of an ADC is to deal as much damage as possible. PBE Sivir deals damage. No doubt about that. She deals more damage than Live if the enemies are numerous/close enough. But even in that case, this damage is so spread amongst everyone that it seems pretty weak. ADC needs to deal as much damage as possible, but this often requires them to take down precise targets. To kill that late game Nasus, that Jax or that Irelia, what you need the most is single-target damage, not AoE damage. Otherwise they will just ace your team.
- For example, imagine if Twitch's ult was dealing 70% damage to all targets. It would deal more damage if you hit the entire team, but it would not help you to get that one target down.


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Markus Vakarian

Senior Member

10-14-2013

Jinx with 1% AS per level
Range 700..splash damage ALWAYS and every hits can be criticals
Ultimate is based on damage (splash) to finish enemies

Sivir with 1% AS per level
Range 500...splash damage only using richochet and now it has a longer CD,and only first hit can be critic,also other hits have reduced damage.

If you want to keep this base AS per level,everything else must be buffed A LOT.

put together old and new Ricochet with their best parts

Infinite enemies can be hit. Bring back bonus damage. Delete bonus AS from new ultimate
All hits can be critics (even if the ones after first have reduced damage)
Bring back old Cooldown
Also increase the range of the bounces if you don't want to increase her AA range.

Ok remove AS from ulti but give me full movspeed for the entire duration


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MrZakalwe

Senior Member

10-15-2013

PBE Sivir issues - please anybody add to these if they think of any.

Issues that can be solved with the current kit through numbers tweaks:
Combination of low base armour, low base regen and short range make her supremely vulnerable to being poked by autoattacks while last hitting unless she is willing to spam Ricochet and push the lane leaving her vulnerable to ganks.NOTE: If you are willing to spam Ricochet she can make a lane into a nightmarish field of flying projectiles for any short range enemy Marksman/Support the (longer range Marksman are less bothered.

Issues that cannot be solved with the current kit through numbers tweaks:
Very poor single target sustained damage for a Marksman (Ashe level).
Very vulnerable to gapcloser melees.
Lane harrass from W relies on a random number generator (relies on it bouncing in the right direction before the enemy can leave the small bounce range) making it potentially powerful but very unreliable.
Relies on the enemy team bunching up for an extended period to access her damage steroid.

This last issue is the one I'm most worried about: as far as I can tell you don't do well as PBE Sivir by doing things right, you rely on the enemy doing things wrong as your only real steroid is based on enemies standing next to each other within 500 range of you and not trying to kill you. Now this isn't an issue in the PBE right now because very few people take PBE games seriously but on live...


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Tsuyoku

Senior Member

10-15-2013

This is just bad. Riot is probably not even reading on the EU PBE forum.

On NA people turn around the pot on her skills and damages. No one seem to mention anything about sustain or survivability.

I seriously don't care how much they boost her AS or ricochet power. If going in the 500 range means suicide, they can tweak whatever they want, it's just pointless.

btw

Quote:
Really? I've found her quite mana hungry across an extended fight or laning.

Yes. she's mana hungry. so does corki, so does mf, so does many champs like blitz, anivia... but this is not a problem. just a good deal with her powerful boomerang. -> use it correctly or get oom.

On the other hand again, getting in 500 range with only an ulti as wanna be escape skill... (argh no u're supposed to use it to buff your team. not to save your ass) this is a huge problem for an adc.