Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a tonne of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out Boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Heimerdinger rework on PBE today

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sorlin87

Junior Member

10-14-2013

RAISE YOUR DONGER, expecially in euw...seems that there is a lot less interest here than on NA forum. Too bad that the "discussions" can't be merged in some ways.

I have seen recently that in the na, there is a lot of discussion on the reliability of the turret's beams. Also some proposal on the passive, and as before for me for the ultimate (separate cooldowns).

The passive's power level has some strict restriction i see, expecially the one on the "mindshare" required to be low, that for an genius inventor...don't seem fitting enough. And if i remember correctly 20thCentyuryFaux, you want heimerdinger to concentrate on the playing of turret,missile and granade.

So, he is an inventor that "control" turrets, but at the moment the control is not so good, and a human mind is "better" than an AI. How about a passive in the fashion of vicktor?(dont want to take away uniqueness...but inventor and items seems to fit well)

Passive: Heimer has a "radiocontrol" item. This item have some auras/stat (regen or similar, + some scaling bonus to replace the missing slot item). But the interesting part: ACTIVE: all your active turret in range shot at a designed point.

With this, i don't intend to eliminate the ai (only the beam attack versus minions is removed, and the turret shots, when champions is not on the "edge" of the beam range). So that a player could not mind the active and have the normal ai. But if he wants to "clear waves", or harass when other skill is on cooldown he can direct the beams, outplaying the opponent.
Another thing, is that this object can be upgraded, requiring gold as a cost. So that could make turret more "fit" the player. An evolution maybe increase range of vision when not active (support ward like), another can make the beam more fast in recharge or travel speed(more zone control), and a third can make the turrets less resistant but more expendable or cd red for the one that miss his ultis passive (offensive) (if you played TF2 the engineer object that make upgrading impossible but deplyoing weaker turret faster).This kind of "evolution" can remind the previous upgrades that had been tied to the turrets skill level before.

Sorry for the long post, the idea is actually really simple, make an inventor tied to items. It adds a lot of levers too, by tuning an object stats(cd red for the ones that like . This could hinder is "lategame" but i don't think it is so much a problem for a champion that has always been a "early game" power.

Also, i know this could prove intensive in the work to balance and test, but i prefer i can wait.
Still thanks for the passion you put into this 20CenturyFaux, keep up with the good work!

P.s. Lesser passive tied to items: make potion use on heimer to be shared by turrets.(early game with healing potion = current passive, late with more life/cd red with elixirs).
Also, there is a method to share this with NA, without making another account and reposting? So to have more feedbacks?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ferriruiz

Junior Member

10-14-2013

I'm not a really experienced player at all, but i picked heimer as my second champion without even trying it because i liked his playstyle a lot, even though i knew he was considered to be pretty bad. When I saw the rework i was really happy to know that he could be improved without changing him up. I love it so far, but i got a little suggestion about something that felt annoying when playing as him.

When you are alone in the lane for a bit and pushing with turrets, it gets pushed so easily that turrets become useless so fast (they are placed sooo behind the enemy minion wave). I'd like to see in heimer the ability to disassemble a turret in order to gain one turret pack, even if that costs either a bigger CD in the turrets or a long time of dissassembly, so if you do it with enemy champions nearby they will jump on you.

Thanks for reading


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

20thCenturyFaux

QA Analyst

10-14-2013

Quote:
Sorlin87:
RAISE YOUR DONGER, expecially in euw...seems that there is a lot less interest here than on NA forum. Too bad that the "discussions" can't be merged in some ways.

...

Also, there is a method to share this with NA, without making another account and reposting? So to have more feedbacks?


Not as far as I know, sorry :X


Quote:
Sorlin87:

The passive's power level has some strict restriction i see, expecially the one on the "mindshare" required to be low, that for an genius inventor...don't seem fitting enough. And if i remember correctly 20thCentyuryFaux, you want heimerdinger to concentrate on the playing of turret,missile and granade.


That's certainly a point that'd change quite a bit. If we lifted the mindshare restriction on the passive, and let Heimer have something that demanded more of his thinking, we could do way more awesome stuff with it. I'm not sure what we could streamline to make room for it, though. E is already pretty simple to use. Would Q or W get easier to use, or is there some other way to give people the mental space to fit a passive they'd need to manage?

Quote:
Sorlin87:
Passive: Heimer has a "radiocontrol" item. This item have some auras/stat (regen or similar, + some scaling bonus to replace the missing slot item). But the interesting part: ACTIVE: all your active turret in range shot at a designed point.


Hehehe, we did think about something like this, actually--it also would have had the ability to "pick up" Heimer turrets and move them around, Syndra style xD

We ended up not going with it for a handful of reasons that ball together. Complexity, of course, but also item slot questions--does the item upgrade like Viktor's? How big does it get? Or is it something small you sell later? Etc.

Giving Heimer direct control of the beams brings questions too. It's awesome for the lane phase, pretty much 100% doing what we want, but we found it broke down in teamfights. When Heimer is kiting away from his turrets, frequently having them shoot while they're timing out while leads the enemy team on a merry jungle chase--how can he beam? Do they beam on their own without his input? If so, how do they decide when to beam on their own or not?

It's a cool idea that I'd definitely explore in a PvE game, but the pressures put on a player in PvP are much higher. Using turret AI that's optimized for cases of "people diving Heimer" lets Heimer focus on stuff he'd rather pay attention to: Turret placement, rockets, pushing objectives, and kiting the enemy. At least, that's where we ended up going with our reasoning on the topic.

Quote:
Sorlin87:

Sorry for the long post, the idea is actually really simple, make an inventor tied to items.


That definitely comes through, I'm just starting to think it's not Heimerdinger. Heimer is a turrets-focused champion. An items-focused tinkerer could definitely make for a cool champion in its own right!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cripple

Member

10-15-2013

Quote:
ferriruiz:
I'd like to see in heimer the ability to disassemble a turret in order to gain one turret pack, even if that costs either a bigger CD in the turrets or a long time of dissassembly, so if you do it with enemy champions nearby they will jump on you.

Thanks for reading


+1

It would be awesome to use Q on an existing turret, dissassembly it and get the kit back. It would also put the CD on Q to 10 sec for example.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sorlin87

Junior Member

10-15-2013

Thanks for your kindly responses, hope i'm not annoying with so much passive proposals ! I learn a lot by YOUR thoughts!
About the item and the teamfights, i thinked it without the removal of the AI, but because we will never get to direct the beams manually in the following situations, what does the AI do now(i cant playtest them sadly T_T)? The scenarios i had seen for it's usage was that of (beams only):

1-Lone enemy enter bush with no vision : does the AI try to shot him with the beam?
2-Snipe with no vision: not very likely, and i still have granade for "blind" shots, but is the AI beaming also when i rocket in a blind spot?
3-Enemy walks just inside range then flee: is the AI shooting at max range to people not actively attacking the turret or heimer? Or people can "bait" the ray by running in and out?
4-Minions: is the AI shooting beams when i last hit? Can i direct when i want to use the beams to push? Can i "hold" the beams charged to use on a champion with some action?

Hope all the points are clear, beams are a pretty major damage source, can they be enhanced for making plays?
Some small tweaks i see fitting if not already there:
-make beams target also rocketed enemies, maybe also in bush.
-give AI some guessing method, maybe just a "cut retreat" behaviour when low health enemy enter bushs.
-Can we have a button or make turret adapt to heimer behaviour for switching turrets from "froze lane" -> "push with everything you have got" (more on the beams thing, for autoattacks i'm not sure if it is not a button).

Now,still hoping i'm not annoying, i will share some passive ideas (also, have you some example of "low power" passives? Is "sinergy" with skills power (example ryze with spammable Q)?)

-Distortion field: turret emanate a field that make finding heimerdinger more difficult. He has Eve invi when in range X from a turret.
-good: protect him from poke,but not all-ins, can set up rockets,granade shots, can be used to "roam" if deactivation bar not shown to enemy, counterplayed by destroying turrets (if u doesn't already do this for other reasons ). balancing factors: turrets active/deactive, you know the "general" position of heimer (if deactivation bar not shown, you still know after x second). bad: CAN (depends on players) enhance defensive play, turret based,too powerful maybe?.


-Sonar: enhance heimer vision based on level (less ganks?). He still cant see "in" bushes, but he sees past them (too powerful if see also past ramps? Maybe only turret vision. good: unique, less gank without enhancing base stats, mindshare low. bad: powerful or useless (just put turrets In the bush)?.

-Targeting nanobot: when beam/rocket/granade it an enemy it "marks" it, briefly giving vision of him. The mark is consumed by turret's autoattack to deal extra damage. good:reward hitting skillshots and enhances "plays" wit rocket and granade,entering bush don't shut turrets, pushing power of turrets enhances IF you use rockets (expecially less concentrated) on minions (is it me or i don't see lot of rocket used in the less concentrated version?),mindshare low (you still want to hit with skillshot ). bad: powerful? offensive in nature, not really helping a "losing" heimer...except it gives him more burst when dived under turrets.

Ok, it's a long post. Thanks for the hard work (listening to players XD) 20thCenturyFaux, and working on a difficult rework! P.s. hope the ai question are not already answered elsewhere!

edit:

What skill you max? i cant test this, but i will say that i will max Q. It seems the best way to have power before 6 without going out of mana, and also gives the better flexibility/power at 6.

Reading na forum, i see a strange interaction of the ulti:
It gives you more power if you use the ulti on an not-maxed skill( The exception being Q with the low cooldown)
E+RW is more burst if i max E. RE+W is more burst if i max W, so if i want power i have "less choiche" on the ulti based on my build. Strange interaction based on ulti not scaling with non-ulti skill point and the separate cooldown on ultied-version (triple Q rengar ok, triple W heimer with that cooldown i still don't see anyone staying in range after the first W+RW).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Stolen Account

Recruiter

10-15-2013

when I saw his new ult I immediately thought of leblanc ult, which has only 60 sec. cooldown. but heimer only has the free mana cost above that but why is it then 100 cd. it's only another abilit. I liked it more when you could do all your abilities that was cool but now it's like: 'which one?'. and then you are dead.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

20thCenturyFaux

QA Analyst

10-16-2013

Quote:
Sorlin87:
Reading na forum, i see a strange interaction of the ulti:
It gives you more power if you use the ulti on an not-maxed skill( The exception being Q with the low cooldown)
E+RW is more burst if i max E. RE+W is more burst if i max W, so if i want power i have "less choiche" on the ulti based on my build. Strange interaction based on ulti not scaling with non-ulti skill point and the separate cooldown on ultied-version (triple Q rengar ok, triple W heimer with that cooldown i still don't see anyone staying in range after the first W+RW).


Yeah, this was very intriguing to me too. It does warp choice slightly, but only if Heimer is maxing W in lane--Q's cooldown being only one second, Q Heimer isn't in danger of this.

Near as I can tell, I have three main choices: Do what I did, do what Karma does, or make the ult-enhanced skill power based on the skill's rank. Both the Karma "ult + base" and the "all base" options leave the Heimer player with fewer choices than the "all ult" option, so I'm inclined to stick with the current implementation, but it's a very interesting puzzle from a design standpoint.

The only way to make it completely ignore the base skill would be to make it "all ult" and have it reset the cooldowns, but that would make me weaken the ult considerably. So the choice then becomes "stronger ult" vs "more choice for W max Heimer", with the choice benefit going away as Heimer finishes maxing his second skill. Viewed in that light, I think the no cooldown reset + all ult scaling best fits our goals.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

JimmynatorB

Junior Member

10-16-2013

First off, thanks for this awesome rework, I've been waiting ages to see this degree of consistence on heimer's kit, and you've achieved what many couldn't with other reworks: retain the core gameplay mechanics that set him apart from other champions.

There is just one complain, and that is his passive, it doesn't feel like there is a passive, and the passive itself is stronger than it may seem at first glance. The sustain in lane his passive offers is incredible, and it makes him do what he does best, defend a place as much time as possible. The problem as I said before is that it isn't noticeable, so to solve it I thought this passive would do well while retaining his sustain:

Passive:
Heimerdinger and nearby allies get shielded at a rate of x/second up to a maximum of x (where x is dependant on his level). This shield disappears after y seconds of leaving the area of effect.

I feel like this passive is more noticeable than the current one, and it would allow support heimerdingers to make their carries have sort of increased maximum life (as a shield), making it awesome for defensive lanes, it also gives some the sustain the older passive, but instead of raw sustain, it gives sustain to small amounts of harrass. This new passive gives heimer awesome zone and objective control, by increasing the effective maximum health of the team before fighting, and as the shield is being constantly generated, it gives amazing sustain after the fight starts.

I would love to know what you think of this idea. Is it a good one? Is it bad? Why? Either way, thanks for reading this even if I get no reply.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Beats29

Senior Member

10-16-2013

Gotta love this.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Heptic

Recruiter

10-17-2013

Hi i just played Donger-san on the pbe in a normal game and I think that his turrets are still pretty much useless especially early game cause ~125hp is pretty low... But not only that late game the 425hp is still nothing to an adc or an apc that has some aoe spells cause you can't set the turrets to far away. But that is not the biggest problem the auto attack range of the turrets is so low that they are only useful agents melee champs.
So my opinion would be that you should make the turret auto attack range slightly longer and as donger you build tankier items like rod of ages and etc... It would be nice if the turrets health would be a percentage of you'r maximum health like yoricks ghouls