Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a tonne of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out Boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Season 4 & The Impossible Tension between Support Income and Wards

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Awsum O 2000

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Hey hey rioters, as a main mid/support (plat 5 with a 40/18 W/l ratio if it matters) Id love to give some feedback!

-What do you think are the problems with support income?

I -love- to play around with offensive based supports, but as pointed out by yourself there are A LOT of standard goldsinks for supports, wards (sightstone, and mostly pinks to allow jungle agression) are the main culprit here. After getting the standard philo stone and sightstone I usually get a 'whats he doing now' item think of: kages pick on zyra, tear for blitz/nami (/sheen). After this you have to look if your top/jungler has done an aegis yet. Ofcourse, youll get the aegis but not before buying an oracle every 5 minutes that is, if you want to have any chance of winning the vision game. Which is pivotal to a teams' succes

-How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think...)

It really depends on what your aiming for, as an offensive supporter (mostly ap offensive) Ideally id have a full build ( sightstone, a bucketload of ap items/oracle n a defensive/aura item like aegis)So id say around.. 14-15k ?

-If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?

When your supporting(read:protecting) your adc band make sure he doesnt gets blown up , perhaps its only reasonable to get portion of gold when he cs'es?

-How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?

You dont, its common sense that has to develop naturally. I suppose if your hellbent on teaching people you could introduce scenario like tutorials(or a video) where you show the benefits of spotting enemy movement/roaming

-Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?

No, they are pivotal to succesfull strategies, but both normal and pink wards are easily countered (either by other pink wards or oracles). Personally I find them rather balanced the way they are, reducing their time would make it a tedious task to keep the map warded, increasing their time would make players lazy and complacent

-Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?
I find this question rather weighted,you clearly imply that supports are the ones that shoulder the highest consumable expenditure. When playing mid I always ensure to get atleast 2 (but usually more) wards to aid in warding the enemy jungle. Warding is and should be a team effort, where supports contribute the most in the form of their sightstone.

But to answer your question,no they shouldnt. But they are the ones in charge of winning the vision war.

-Are the expectations on a support player too high?

No, its a steep challenge to be a good support. But good supports will rise to the challenge and can carry a team just as well. As long as people are willing to play together an ace support can change every game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Caridor

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
ShakeNBakeUK:

why can you not just simply limit the amount of wards that one team can purchase every 5 minutes.


This would make solo queue explode unless the limit was meaningless.
"OMFG Nasus, ward your lane!"
"I can't, sona bought all the wards!"
"Well, I guess, you're ****ed then unless sona goes top to ward"
Tristana has been killed
"WTF Sona! Where the hell are you?!?"

And that's just one where it could go. There are a billion other ways it could go, none of them good.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IngmarBergman

Senior Member

09-10-2013

I think support players can't get much more gold, maybe a little, from taking like a summoner spell CV (which should be buffed). Because if support players would get MUCH more gold, this would make spam ap carries in solo q, maybe even not only in solo q, same situation with jungle. If every player on the map would gain same amounts of gold, they all would play carries, at least that what my logic tells me.

The way I see it, support should have most utility, and the least amount of stats. So ward items and utility items is the answer. Maybe taking summoner spell like CV could give a passive gold gain, a little cheaper wards, cheaper utility items could solve the problem, but these changes must be dealt with carefully. Same goes with junglers, if junglers would gain same amount of gold as mid laners or top laners, they would become harder carries then mid and top laners, because of the free roam, that they get to start from level 1


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Drakoniak

Senior Member

09-10-2013

This threas is receivin quiet a lot of post but none seems to talk about adding new types of wards i mean there are the Sigh Wards(green) last 3 mins reveal small area ok all fine, Vision ward releals stealth type wards /enemys all fine here too but could be there added new ward types? Maybe new ward types could be better just as example we could have placed one skill point in mastery tree to unlock a skill that could give 1 free ward every 3 mins(max 1) similar to the wriggle lanter but focused for utility. Other thing is that suport gold incomes are depedent on items/kills since there are no income from minions maybe another skill that grants a x% from the total of a close dead minion think about it: bot duo with (example) the gold skill sona stays close to adc, adc last hits earns 18 gold sona gets 6 gold (only applying to teammate last hit) alose her gold income will be normal if she last hits herself to prevent gold stacking.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bonehead

Junior Member

09-10-2013

How about the support gets a small amount every time a minion dies within a short range, that way the supports have an incentive to stick with the ad carry and are rewarded for doing so.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xaviour

Junior Member

09-10-2013

To be able to adres these problems one needs to indentify what makes these roles unique. Only by targeting the things that only their roles have, you can buff these roles without buffing the other roles

support uniques:
- tons of wards
- no farm
- utillity mastery tree
- no kills/ lots of assists

most easy options is to decrease the cost of wards, however i think this would only increase the amount of wards bought, thus creating near true vision, and making jungling/ganking harder/impossible.

no farm
You could create an item that reacts negatively to farming something like:
generates a vision ward every x seconds , cooldown is increased by y seconds for every cs farmed during the cd

utillity tree could just give some gp5 effect, gold on death or nearby cs etc, but should be quite deep in the tree.

no kills/ lots of assits
create something like an assisting spree, which gives more bonus gold for each subsequent assist, broken by taking a kill (and perhaps dieing)



jungle uniques:
- smite
- more assists/ less kills

gold from smiting could be increased by a bit, gold from smiting dragon/baron could be increased more


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vozlo

Member

09-10-2013

what about give us back the old oracle? As it is now, you can go out of position as a jungler or support and still not lose anything from it. When I play ranked, solo or 5v5 if I see someone with oracle and kill him/her I want them to lose oracle so they have to buy a new one. As it is now the winning team can just snowball the vision of the map harder than before.

Sure this will make so that support really need to consider if they should or shouldn't buy oracle, but that's the good part. I don't like it when I can buy a oracle without losing anything on it... Right now I think oracle is OP. And if I want too remove the wards on the map without getting out of position, either I need good map control/vision or I actually have to make my team go with me or I go with them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Caelerys

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Xelnath:
  • What do you think are the problems with support income?
  • How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think...)
  • If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?
  • How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?
  • Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?
  • Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?
  • Are the expectations on a support player too high?
  • This might sound dumb, but the "problem" I have as a Support main, as far as income is concerned, is that I can't afford what I want... e.g. if they have double AP, I want a Locket, but I can never finish it
  • Enough to purchase Sightstone, Tier3 Boots, and at least another couple support items (be it Locket and Shurelia, Shurelia and Zeke, Zeke and Twins, whatever)... and ofc some pink to complement the sightstone. The burden of "regular" warding should be shared
  • When I make plays. So, when we take objectives or kills. I don't want gold for sitting idly by my ADC farming, that's boring and I could as well be afk in the bush...
  • Give assists for vision. Make the ward blink on the minimap when an enemy champion passes by (internal cooldown to avoid abuse). Dunno, maybe give everyone a greenwards-only slot in the inventory (Sighstone goes into that slot, so a) as a Support once I have it I won't be expected to buy more greens and b) everyone will eventually get one because, hey, free hp in a slot I couldn't otherwise have usen)
  • Wards are fine. Oracle is broken. 400g for a 5min moving pink ward? come on... counterwarding should come with a price, pinks are perfect in that: "get rid of a single enemy ward for 125g" is fine, "get rid of every enemy ward for 400g" is NOT!
  • I already adressed it. The greenwards-only slot would fix most of those problems in ze blink of an eye
  • Uh? Your expectations or your teams' expectations? Your team expects nothing of you as a support, except maybe not to feed. When they go "this support... 0 wards" is usually because they're out of ppl to blame for their mistakes, most of the times because they're the jungler, the solo laners are positive, and u're the only one with a negative K/D (even though you have more assists than he has cs)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ShakeNBakeUK

Senior Member

09-10-2013

  • What do you think are the problems with support income?
    - Lack of passive gold income items (Kage's is not a very good pickup right now).
  • How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think...)
    - Zero. Supports are there because they do not rely on scaling / stats in order to be effective. Any gold they get should be counted as a blessing. All they need are their high utility spells.
  • If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?
    - When you out-perform / out-play the enemy support.
  • How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?
    - No need to, everyone knows how strong wards are.
  • Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?
    - The fact that there is no limit to the amount of wards you can buy at any one time makes them too powerful.
  • Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?
    - They are the only ones with spare inventory slots, so yes. Although if the rest of the team has space, they should be buying at least 1 ward on every trip back to base.
  • Are the expectations on a support player too high?
    - Nope.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Atermon

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Xelnath:

  • What do you think are the problems with support income?
  • How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think...)
  • If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?
  • How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?
  • Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?
  • Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?
  • Are the expectations on a support player too high?

X-Posted on NA.


Firstly I have to mention that I play supports since season 1 and I have played every possible support (including those that make people mad )

- Anyway, the problem with supports income is that their income is passive. They don't have to sweat to earn it and I know, for balance reasons, it has to be low. Because if passive income (e.g. gp10 items) was too high, everyone would exploit it and not lasthit. I believe, if supports were more active about their gold income, something could be done to increase it. However, I am afraid this will change the support role completely and change their focus of poking and protecting to earning gold.

- Supports need enough gold for warding and enough gold for items that will make them feel powerful. At least they need equal gold with top lane, so that at 50 minutes they have 5 slots with high end items and 1 slot for warding.

- First, they should earn more gold from assists. Next, there should be a mastery which would slightly increase the passive gold income with every ward planted. Also, a mastery would be nice to exist for less bounty when killed.

- I am afraid the significance of wards comes with experience. We can't make a player believe wards are powerful, until they see themselves that 75g delay to your build will pay off five times more in a few minutes later. However, you can change the tutorial for beginners and make special chapter for wards.

- Currently they are not extremely powerful. In my opinion, they have short sight range and last too short. And they can be easily wiped out by oracles. About pink wards, they are too cheap right now, because with 1 pink ward you a) kill 1 enemy ward b) you gain vision in that area c) you earn 30 gold.

- Lowest income characters are not expected to carry or invest in big items, so the team think it is only natural for supports to be useful by warding for them. This is totally wrong. Warding should be everyone's business equally.

- Expectations are too high when it comes to warding. People expect you to have wards up all the time and when they they the map dark, they freak out and flame. Even when a teamfight has occured and the support is dead and the wards just expired, they will, without thinking, accuse the support of not warding properly.


I have some suggestions about supports;
Keep the role as it is, but make warding everyone's business. Make an extra special slot for wards for every champion, which will have 2 charges and every charge will need gold to place the ward. So, if your teammates see you never use your charges (thus gold) for warding, they can remind you to contribute to team's vision. And the burden of warding reduces to 1/5 for the supports.

Moreover, if you want to keep passive gold income for supports, make new enchanced gp10 items without any interesting stats. So, other roles will not abuse them and supports can make some big items mid or late game. Active gold income requires a total overhaul of the support role and in the end, there is the danger of creating a second ap(or ad) carry role. Actually, it's not bad idea