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Season 4 & The Impossible Tension between Support Income and Wards

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Athanbeleaguer

Senior Member

09-10-2013

The Pickpocket mastery was definitely a good firs step towards making support a ton more fun, and we need more of that.

I play Sona and Thresh as my supports right now, and it's really pleasing to get an -obvious- reward for harrassing.
Now, stuff like Pickpocket naturally promotes aggression in bottom lane, and that is, in my opinion, a good thing, because passive supports like... Soraka or to some extent Janna, are really boring to play for most of the game, up until teamfights.

Rewarding aggression with additional income is the way to go if you ask me. Both for viewership and playbase.


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ni yao xiang xin

Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Xelnath:

Wow! This is a lot!!

No kidding. This is not a small set of problems. So to kick off this discussion, help me out:

[*]What do you think are the problems with support income?


None..
When I play support and need money, I tell my adc that and take a few cs from him. Especially when we both about to back. I usually get shureliya's and sight stone, boots of mobitily and I'm done. The rest I spend on oracles and +5+ wards extra. I ward the whole map, my team helps warding, I land my combos in TF and can die.

The problems are mainly in soloq, where all trash is being narrow minded and cries about their inability to adapt.

Quote:
[*]How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think...)


find no problem with current situation. (that is at diamond/plat level playing on another account.)

Quote:
[*]If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?

If you give supports more gold, then eventually, HELLO ****ING RABADON SUPPORT ZYRA incoming. Because again, it's not about having tons of wards, but about warding smart and calling placements and times of those wards and acting accordingly. You don't need ward your lane against some matchups at all.

Look at C9, Ashe Zyra, just chilling in wardless lane and not giving a ****. And when you farm at tower, they can try to dive, but you never get surprised. It's about playing it smart. Again, people fail to cooperate, then cry about not having enough gold for wards etc.

Quote:
[*]How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?

If they didn't by now, they're trash.

Quote:
[*]Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?

Wards are oK, you give more gold to supports, everyone gonna run around with ORACLES nonstop. 3 minutes is fine as well. You full clear small camps in jungle in about 50 seconds (not counting in blue and red), if you don't gang some lane (top/mid) then you go full clear round 2... = 100 seconds, then perhaps you back to buy +8 teleport + at least 25 seconds to get to mid lane. = 133 seconds. You may gang or clear or counter jungle.. 180 - 133 = 47 for that. It takes 40 seconds to run from your base to enemy "blue or red"... when you get into jungle/ward game, 3 MINUTES SEEMS TOO SHORT..

Assume you want to ward enemy jungle, while counter jungling, you want to keep track of enemy jungler as well. With 3 minutes ward you may be lucky to see him once clearing his route sometimes. Seriously, it's all fine.

Not to mention timing wards and planning your route in such manner that you gang exactly after the wards have expired and before the new ones were placed.

Quote:
[*]Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?

That depends on how team communicate. If your mid/top/jungle is refusing to buy wards, then ef them.

Quote:
[*]Are the expectations on a support player too high?

No.


Imo, I'm sorry to see that you are changing the game because majority of people are low skill trash that just don't get it or can't be arsed to actually care to become better and experience awesome plays that would happen when they bother to activate their brains.


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nuppih

Recruiter

09-10-2013

CV could be an alternative sight stone that has like 3-5 1 min wards and it's still global.
Would this be op?


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Kevin Rill

Junior Member

09-10-2013

What are the issues?

Quote:
Supports
  • Supports are expected to not last hit, thus gaining no income
  • Supports are expected to shoulder most of the gold burden for purchasing wards
  • Supports are expected to roam the map and ward
  • Supports are expected to buy expensive activated items
  • Supports are expected to be effective without gold revenue
  • Supports are often tied to the Marksman carry
  • Supports never get to achieve an endgame fantasy due to losing all of their income to vision expenditures


One thing to perhaps consider is to actually remove some of these expectations from supports. An example of how to do this:

Limit the amount of wards on individual can place on the map ie three wards per player at a time maximum. This is one way to force multiple members of a team to share the warding gold burden, and it fits in the the ruby sightstone item. This actually opens up different strategies such as having a support use ruby sightstone/oracles or to just ignore it completely and go for pink wards, and instead gets another player to get a sight stone.



Quote:
Vision
  • Wards are necessary to protect the sanctity of laneing from persistent Jungler aggression
  • Wards are necessary to observe important locations and objective
  • Wards cost gold, from the character least equipped to afford them
  • Wards are the only option for revealing a specific area to move forward safely
  • Wards used in the previously mentioned way linger for a long time (3 minutes!!)
  • Wards are so important, players feel entitled to having the map warded without contributing

Wow! This is a lot!!


Have you even tried testing on a version of LoL that has no wards? To go back to absolute basics and start again, implementing a new vision system rather than wards? Or you could do something different like maybe make wards a finite resource, wards drop with the death of specific minions/monsters like Thresh souls. That removes them entirely from the gold problem.


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suspect134

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Athanbeleaguer:
The Pickpocket mastery was definitely a good firs step towards making support a ton more fun, and we need more of that.

I play Sona and Thresh as my supports right now, and it's really pleasing to get an -obvious- reward for harrassing.
Now, stuff like Pickpocket naturally promotes aggression in bottom lane, and that is, in my opinion, a good thing, because passive supports like... Soraka or to some extent Janna, are really boring to play for most of the game, up until teamfights.

Rewarding aggression with additional income is the way to go if you ask me. Both for viewership and playbase.


Its so deep in the tree though, but yeah its a very fun mastery!


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Aezander

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Xelnath:
[*]What do you think are the problems with support income?

Early game. The fact that Supports are not allowed to last hit, means that they are overly depend on natural gold income, plus masteries and that they have to complete their gp/5 item(s) to get any solid foothold in their quest to build their items and buy wards at the same time. And if early game doesn't go well for their lane, things get awefully messy.

Quote:
Xelnath:
[*]How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think...)

Hmm .. Enough to complete at least half of the items their last-hitting teammembers can? Tough question. When the game progresses smoothly in the early stages, I found myself with enough gold not to worry overly much, and when not. Well. I fell way behind. And became a liability usually, as I couldn't do anything more than harrass (if I hit from a range, and even that was a no go at some times) or take the fall for my ADC or anyother teammate (increasing my deaths and team nagging).

Quote:
Xelnath:
[*]If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?

Maybe gain a passive gold income of 1 or 2 when you are close to someone that last hits (someone other than yourself; maybe this can be implemented into the utility mastery tree). Iirc there is a mastery that allows you to gain gold for basic attacks against champions, maybe it can be expanded? Or maybe gain a bit of gold every time our ward spots an opponent?

Quote:
Xelnath:
[*]How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?

Watching pro players, I am guessing that many players can see how strong map vision is. And from their own games they certainly should recongnize how vision could mean the difference between spotting a gank early and saving their hides or making a suprise attack on opponents when they walk into a place they don't think they could be seen. The trouble is that most players forget that after a match, remembering and focusing only in the KD (not even KDA :P) and the great game mechanic uses.

Quote:
Xelnath:
[*]Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?

I've never considered wards themselves as OP. What I am not sure about though is if they are cost effective for a support. It sure as heck benefits the team, but the degree of benefit received by a support is lessened.

Quote:
Xelnath:
[*]Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?[*]Are the expectations on a support player too high?

A support has to ward and build a utility item set for the team. In an ideal team, all members should take at least a sight ward every now and then (especially in the early phases of the game, where the support isn't roaming to spam its wards). But that's on an ideal team. :P Still the induction of the sightstones helpt a lot with the expenses on wards.

And that's about all I can think for atm.


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Mollendo

Senior Member

09-10-2013

I thought about ~5 gold per 10 seconds you´d get passively if you have smite as summoner spell. That would be like having a gold item which junglers used to get (RiP Heart of Gold). Calculated that would be 300 gold per 10 minutes, which is - in my opinion - not too much if you consider how far junglers usually fall behind in gold. Numbers are just hypothetical of course.

And i don´t think any laner would get this item because it´s not enough to match other summoner spells in effiency for them.


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Danger Stomp

Junior Member

09-10-2013

Give dorans items a ward everytime you go base(can have a unique-pasive if there's an abuse of wards), but people usually keeps dorans until the end of the game so the support isn't warding alone all the game even in the lower levels.

Also the gp5 mastery could change and increase in a % the income of gold from items of something, anyway there's a lot of maths behind that


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Bauce Lawyerson

Recruiter

09-10-2013

I think the main problem with support income at the moment is that supports can actually snowball pretty hard. If you get ahead in lane early as a support by getting a kill or your team getting an early dragon you have so much more gold to invest in vision than the other support that you can completely remove their vision and block off the enemy team entirely. It really sucks for the support that's behind that all their wards are getting cleared with vision/oracle while they can neither afford an item to gain a stat advantage nor enough vision to counter the other support. In longer games where I do well I finish with around 8.5-10k gold and that's enough to afford all the items I want + sufficient gold. But when the enemy support gets an early advantage and completely shuts down every opportunity for counterplay I'm often left with 5.5-6.5k; which almost entirely goes to wards because there's rarely a point where you can buy an item without sacrificing vision.

TL;DR: Support income feels satisfying when you are ahead but you get crippled hard at the slightest early disadvantage. I can't actually think of a good way to fix this but that's what bothers me about the gold income aspect of playing support.

I also really dislike the Aegis/Locket change. Before; I could mix and match all the various components to prioritize health/armor/mr/cdr in the most optimal order and finish either depending on what the team needed the most. Now I'm forced to buy the Aegis anyway even if I only want the armor or the shield active. Not to mention that if someone else on my team decides to pick up an aegis instead I have nothing decent left that I can buy for resistances. Tanky initiators like Leona can get away with Sunfire Cape or Spirit Visage but those are useless on traditional backline supports.

TL;DR: Split Locket up again or give supports more cheap early items.


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trymenot

Junior Member

09-10-2013

Wards decrease their gold cost by 1 and increase their ward time by 2 seconds, for every ward you buy.

The ward cost is only reduced to player that buys those wards. To a minimum of 50 gold.