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Season 4 & The Impossible Tension between Support Income and Wards

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Xelnath

Systems Designer

09-10-2013

Quote:
Dr Fizzics:
Having CV be prety much like a Vision Ward, true sight that can't be destroyed.
The vision range granted should be an increased version of the ward itself. (E.g. if wards give 700 vision then CV should give 900)
Having that on a 200second cooldown is basically a permanent ward.

It would reduce the pain of buying huge amounts of wards for support.
+ You would be able to see wards of the enemy, but not destroy them.


Wouldn't that be just too strong - get two clairvoyances on a team, drop one over blue buff, drop one over red buff - now you always see the enemy jungler's movements. 100% of the time.


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Koyaki

Senior Member

09-10-2013

As a support player I would enjoy so much an item who give us gold everytime an ALLY kill a minion in an area.
With regen hp/mp if possible, so we can chose to go the AP way(Kage,...) without having to go philo because we can't handle the substain


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Tosha

Senior Member

09-10-2013

I'm not sure about the idea of runes and passives that make wards cheaper. I think that only puts more pressure on the support to buy more wards instead of all teammembers. "You can buy them cheaper, so I'm not spending my cash on it" - something like that, making the support even more of a warding robot (if that's even possible)


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Rhor

Member

09-10-2013

I must say I find myself doing well with items and gold even if i dont win lane when i do full gp/10 runes and start with the ingredients for philo stone and 2 wards. I go back for early philo and 1 more ward and from then i buy wards and sighstone and after that follow up with boots. and at about 20 mins i have enough gold to keep 8-9 wards up constantly and still continue to build to my items slowly.

So all supports need is just slight boost to gold over time and I think they'll be doing just fine without starting gp10 yellows. An idea idea Ive had for a while is oracle like t2 item that would be appealing only to supports item that gives some stats and reveals invisible units in melee range and increasing slightly oracle's range; this would make counter-warding as support team job but would give items some kind of vision control even if behind; oracle still would be nice for clearing vision around objectives and helping when you are ahead since it will be kinda hard to clear objectives with melee vision ^^


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Trollexia

Senior Member

09-10-2013

xj9/meteos style will get me 30k gold in the jungle now? cool


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xArcuranx

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Xelnath:
*sharpens his claws a bit*

For those of you who missed it, I want to draw attention to this post.



These two systems have been the major project that Xypherous and I have been working on for the last 3-4 months. This has been a huge effort, in terms of collecting data, experimenting and generally playing mad scientist while attempting to preserve the core of what makes Summoner's Rift fun.

There's four huge topics here:
  • Jungle gold income
  • Support gold income
  • Support expenditures on warding
  • The effects of using wards to gain vision

Trying to hit all 4 cohesively in one point is madness, however, they are all HIGHLY interconnected. So while this thread is about the overlap between all four, expect to see breakout threads from myself or other designers discussing each topic individually to gather focused feedback.

For this post, I want to talk about the relationship between support income, warding and the problems these two systems are causing with each other:

What are the issues?

Supports
  • Supports are expected to not last hit, thus gaining no income
  • Supports are expected to shoulder most of the gold burden for purchasing wards
  • Supports are expected to roam the map and ward
  • Supports are expected to buy expensive activated items
  • Supports are expected to be effective without gold revenue
  • Supports are often tied to the Marksman carry
  • Supports never get to achieve an endgame fantasy due to losing all of their income to vision expenditures

Vision
  • Wards are necessary to protect the sanctity of laneing from persistent Jungler aggression
  • Wards are necessary to observe important locations and objective
  • Wards cost gold, from the character least equipped to afford them
  • Wards are the only option for revealing a specific area to move forward safely
  • Wards used in the previously mentioned way linger for a long time (3 minutes!!)
  • Wards are so important, players feel entitled to having the map warded without contributing

Wow! This is a lot!!

No kidding. This is not a small set of problems. So to kick off this discussion, help me out:
  • What do you think are the problems with support income?
  • How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think...)
  • If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?
  • How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?
  • Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?
  • Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?
  • Are the expectations on a support player too high?

X-Posted on NA.


With regards to ward money, I have been thinking, when a player buys a ward, when that ward times out it drops a "token" that token can then either:

-Be picked up by that players team, thus earning the player that dropped it 75 gold
-Be picked up by opposing team, thus denying the gold to the other team

Early game the supports would have the same potential they have now, which by no means is great, but could be worse, and still gives them potential for a late game build


Another idea is for Sightstones to not take up an inventory slot but rather act like an extra ability, with a timer similar to teemo mushrooms?

Anyway, just my ideas, probably can be improved, hope to hear more from riot on this matter


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Walking Titan

Member

09-10-2013

I have an idea, basically merge the Inteligence and Sorcery masteries into 1 mastery tree in either offensive or defensive
Then put the 3% Movement(Nimble) speed in a lower tier in the Utility mastery tree
And finally, Make the most expensive mastery in the utility tree something gold related, something like: Trade - Everytime a nearby friendly champion kills a unit, you get 1/5 of that unit total gold value



The jungler, its quite easy to solve the jungler problems
Make a new item that builds from Hunters Machete and gives the following passive: Hunters Pride - Everytime you kill a small neutral monster you get 3 extra gold, golems and elder lizzard give 8 bonus gold and Dragon/Baron give 20 bonus gold
Maybe they will stop missing smite with this item


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Samus

Junior Member

09-10-2013

Silver 2 support main baddie here

To me, I think it's less of an issue with gold income, and more that most support items just aren't very good so there's not really a lot of point getting much else other than the standard sightstone, boots 5 and maybe a locket.

With sightstone, I find myself being able to ward effectively, affording pinks, and slowly getting some (affordable) items for myself at the same time. However, there's rarely much point getting anything else because the items aimed at supports offer me stats that mean nothing by the time I get them. This leads to gameplay getting stale since there's rarely any sort of choice I make about what items I'm going to get which no other role has (apart from the jungler I guess).

Twin Shadows is a fun, situational item to buy sometimes, but that itself is very niche and rarely every purchased by supports. And yet it's probably one of the better items that builds out of a GP10 at the moment. Crucible is kind of bad, expensive and the active (whilst it sounds good on paper) just doesn't really work out the way you want it to in game. Shard of True Ice is also quite bad. Mana regen just isn't really a big enough deal to buy a whole item for it, and the active isn't particularly noteworth, at least compared to the likes of Locket or Shurelya's.

I'd honestly just like some cheap affordable items that the other laners will not want to buy because the stats are easily surpassed by other more expensive items. Meanwhile, I get to build some stuff that actually makes me feel a bit more impactful and the laners won't buy them because they're a lot better off with the items that are more expensive. I dunno, maybe it's a ****ty idea and I probably haven't really thought it through fully but I'm mostly just really tired of my buying being like a routine which I can never deviate from, either because of the lack of gold or because the stats simply aren't worth it.


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SheepOfChaos

Junior Member

09-10-2013

the connection of problems:

- Vision is king, having superior vision will always help you more than anything

- vision takes a lot of gold and time, it's unfeasible to have multiple people invest too much on it, so having one person dedicated to it is the best option -> the support who does work without much gold and lvl anyway

-any kind of gold increase will just increase the amount of word coverage this purson provides

- vision removes possible plays, especially on ganks, lowering the gold income from kills. the more wards come into play, the less ganks can happen

The core problem remains the unlimited amount of wards and the unlimited ability to remove them. The supports and to some degree jungler and laner all focus on warding and removing wards. The point of when to focus on one or the other depends on cost/benefit (which did change in history due to oracles changes), but the point stayed the same.

The solution: limit the number of wards.
It doesn't matter how much gold the support now gets, he won't be able to spend more than up to the limit into wards.
Depending on the limit, a jungler will always find possible routes now to gank, increasing his possible income.

The problem: we're back to some degree where laners could be in constant threat of being ganked, though I believe this can be solved with a somewhat clever limit (like 2 wards per person?)

This would also make clairvoyance an interresting choice.

Right now, the summoner is not feasible, since you a) got enough vision anyway thanks to huge amount of wards and b) you loose out on in lane tradingng potential.

With limiting vision, trading lane potential might be a good strategy -> you can help prevent other lanes from being ganked with the additional vision, so you can play a more save strategy, waiting for mid game, for example.


Another problem would then provide stealth champs like Eve, as well as Oracles. With a limited amount of wards, oracle becomes once again a real problem. Though, a reduced uptime and changed cost might be able to handle it.
The stealth champ problem still kinda remains, but it seems somewhat minor and being able to be balanced with stealth range, duration, and # of vision wards possible.


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Anouleth

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Just cut the cooldown on Clairvoyance. The actual spell is fine as it is.

Or, rework it into a support item as an alternative to Sightstone.

Clairvoyance On A Stick
Cloth Armor + 500G (800G total)
+20 Armor
Unique Active: Reveals a 700 radius area for twelve seconds. Enemy champions in the area are revealed for six seconds. Cooldown 25 seconds.

Clairvoyance On A Stick Deluxe
Clairvoyance On A Stick + Null-Magic Mantle + 400G (1600G total)
+20 Armor
+20 MRES
Unique Active: Gives true vision in a 700 radius area for twelve seconds. Enemy champions in the area are revealed for six seconds. Cooldown 25 seconds.

This alternative to Sightstone has positives and drawbacks. Positives are more flexibility with where your vision is and always having vision on demand. Also, not being vulnerable to Oracle's Elixir on the enemy team. Downsides are having 50% downtime on your vision and revealing to the enemy where your vision is. This creates windows of opportunity for both the user and the opponent.