Season 4 & The Impossible Tension between Support Income and Wards

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Xelnath

Systems Designer

10-09-2013

*sharpens his claws a bit*

For those of you who missed it, I want to draw attention to this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Now, let's put this thread on a good note; let me tell you two must-haves for Season 4 to ship successfully in my mind;

We're going to significantly improve, and ultimately fix, jungle and support gold flow. I feel this is one of the most painful areas of League, and one that can be fixed. A lot of the satisfaction in League is growing in power over time, getting items, and transitioning from early to late game with items. It's definitely a problem that 2/5 of players don't get to do this.

Season 4 changes will address this problem, and very likely throw balance into a tailspin for preseason. Eggs, omelettes, etc. We'll work hard to get that fleshed out and tuned before S4 starts properly.

Wards and the map vision system need to be overhauled. This is part-and-parcel with the above as Support gold largely suffers due to ward gold burden, but there are a multitude of other problems like snowballing, few real interesting ward decision-making opportunities, and few people involved with the vision game. Details have to wait, but the new system will address these issues.
These two systems have been the major project that Xypherous and I have been working on for the last 3-4 months. This has been a huge effort, in terms of collecting data, experimenting and generally playing mad scientist while attempting to preserve the core of what makes Summoner's Rift fun.

There's four huge topics here:
  • Jungle gold income
  • Support gold income
  • Support expenditures on warding
  • The effects of using wards to gain vision

Trying to hit all 4 cohesively in one point is madness, however, they are all HIGHLY interconnected. So while this thread is about the overlap between all four, expect to see breakout threads from myself or other designers discussing each topic individually to gather focused feedback.

For this post, I want to talk about the relationship between support income, warding and the problems these two systems are causing with each other:

What are the issues?

Supports
  • Supports are expected to not last hit, thus gaining no income
  • Supports are expected to shoulder most of the gold burden for purchasing wards
  • Supports are expected to roam the map and ward
  • Supports are expected to buy expensive activated items
  • Supports are expected to be effective without gold revenue
  • Supports are often tied to the Marksman carry
  • Supports never get to achieve an endgame fantasy due to losing all of their income to vision expenditures

Vision
  • Wards are necessary to protect the sanctity of laneing from persistent Jungler aggression
  • Wards are necessary to observe important locations and objective
  • Wards cost gold, from the character least equipped to afford them
  • Wards are the only option for revealing a specific area to move forward safely
  • Wards used in the previously mentioned way linger for a long time (3 minutes!!)
  • Wards are so important, players feel entitled to having the map warded without contributing

Wow! This is a lot!!

No kidding. This is not a small set of problems. So to kick off this discussion, help me out:
  • What do you think are the problems with support income?
  • How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think...)
  • If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?
  • How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?
  • Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?
  • Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?
  • Are the expectations on a support player too high?

X-Posted on NA.


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Iggeh

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Senior Member

10-09-2013

I think the solution for jungle/support incomes should lie in masteries/runes, without making it too accessible to laners and just increase the overall effectiveness gap between them once again (spirit stone items are a clear example of this). I don't have any concrete example of fixing this, but I think that ultimately solution would lie in those, perhaps utility mastery, and laners would have to give up their offensive masteries goodies in order to get them.

offtopic: Xelnath :O


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goldmepls

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Senior Member

10-09-2013

i think support gold income is fine (or atleast not the main problem)
if passive gold gets increased even more, all you are gonna see in bot lane are ap carries afking for 15min and once they get a major ap item they will outclass any regular support, because of the lack of good support items


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Lich is the best

Senior Member

10-09-2013

Give a new unique passive to the Ruby Sightstone:"ward cost reduced by 25 gold".
That way people who have Ruby Sightstone will spend 50 gold on a normal ward(100 on a vision one) and will have more money to buy other items.


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suspect134

Senior Member

10-09-2013

http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.co....php?t=1358726

I spoke about changing the ward mastery here (others ideas too)

If the link doesnt work then this is the post relating to the ward mastery:


"I think a ward price reduction mastery should be put in, so it will only benefit supports going that far deep into utility, then it will benefit those who are good supports, while bad supports notice no difference. I think it should be placed in place of the current extra ward you get (or even deeper in the tree) so it remains an early game mastery (after sight stone it doesnt really matter). I say this because early on, the extra ambient gold ends up going towards an extra ward, and often its too risky to go without a ward, so a support will delay their gp10 in favour of a 3rd or 4th ward. By having a slight ward price reduction, a support can save up to get their gp10 faster and so have more gold to complete more items much faster than it is now.

Often I see poor supports at around 30-40min with cloth boots, a sight stone and 1 item, yet they are fighting with all these champions with nice shiny shoes, massive swords and shimmering armor. Basically a hobo in rags fighting with the army in all their kit.

It could be said that gp10 items could be made cheaper, but its not support specific and bad supports can also benefit from something like that. I think the ward price reduction mastery is support specific, and also a good support will benefit from it, while a bad support who hardly buys wards- wont"


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Australopitenico

Member

10-09-2013

I just logged in for this, I have an idea that may be helpful.

If the problem is that

a)Supports have little gold and they must spend it on wards.
b)People expect the support to buy them without contributing themselves.
c)There is little decision-making when placing wards.

Do away with purchasable wards altogether. Give all characters a sort of free sightstone that they can use to place 2 wards, one at a time, during 2-3 mins, rechargeable at fountain.

-Being free means everyone gets them and they will use them, vision is now an important thing to learn for every player.
-Supports are not burdened anymore with warding, since they can only place 1 (2 with some new masteries?).
-Decision-making becomes important with a limited vision pool.
-Oracle's elixir or a new ability on a support item gives temporal true sight to you and your wards (turning them into pinks). This has short duration and it's used just for dewarding around specific objectives.


If you want to make it even better do away with the concept of wards overall and substitute them with a "familiar" that can be summoned to watch over an area. Profit from cool familiar skins. Make one a mini Draven.

Hope some part of this is helpful.


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yarhar

Senior Member

10-09-2013

How about something along the lines of a mastery for supports/junglers that reduces the cost of wards and support/jungler items by some number ? (30/40%)
It should be something that only supports/junglers will have access to as it takes a significant amount of mastery points and strays from a damage oriented build, and thus it wont make it a wise choice for mids or adcs to take.


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FadeInMotion

Senior Member

10-09-2013

I dont like the warding system in lol overall. You say the wards linger long, but I think the opposite is the case. Once you have finished your "warding tour" the first ward you placed is already about to vanish.So you go ward, go back, buy new wards, go ward again. If you dont Baron wont be warded and you lose. Real Fun. And if the enemy has oracles this gets even more frustrating. Oracle is still too powerful for the winning team and I dont think you should be able to clear wards with oracles at all. Instead make the wards something special like in Dota 2. You only got a limited stock, therefore they last long and have a really good range. They can only be cleared by vision wards. Vision wards though only have true sight, last less long and cost a lot. Of course this would offer a new way of trolling, just buying all wards and placing them in the base. Im aware that this community isnt mature enough for this.


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T0nsOfDamage

Senior Member

10-09-2013

HEART OF GOLD, HEART OF GOLD, HEART OF GOLD, HEART OF GOLD, HEART OF GOLD.

Seriously what about just making gp5 items available to only supports but with a decent income BUT it has no cool actives or anything because well that would be broken. But give them a few choices that offer mediocre stats. So they can at least choose to rush an item or ward more.

As for jungles what about I dunno a gold per 20 item or something? Or an item that gives u a small ammount of gold every time you get an assist or kill a jungle creep and you can choose to cash it in at anytime and the stacks of gold goes back to 0 but you keep the item. It offers no other benefits but that?

Sorry if they are crappy ideas XD


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Deefje

Senior Member

10-09-2013

Have you guys thought about bringing back clairvoyance? Maybe in an improved or reworked state?