Rengar vs Kha'Zix

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PenguinOfD00m

Member

24-04-2013

One of the chart in the attached pic is Rengar, the other is Kha'Zix. Can you guess which one?
I think I do.

I know Riot wants to stay true to the lore, which states that Rengar gets shat on by Kha'Zix, but did we really have to bring this in the gameplay too? Because that's exactly what's happening.

Disregard the following text if you want to go straight for my balancement suggestions

Kha'Zix passive increases damage when he's stealthed or in the brushes, and his Leap does the same thing as Unseen Predator, except it does damage too. Rengar passive lets him jump from brushes. And that's it. Sure, it's great to surprise burst down laners, but it's unreliable as a ganking tool, brushes aren't in the middle of every lane, and that makes Unseen Threat very unreliable as jungler Rengar.

Kha'Zix Q is stronger than Rengar Q, but it doesn't give Attack Speed. That would put Rengar in a good spot, since its Q can be empowered to double the effect, but Kha'Zix has passively empowered Q when it is evolved, which stacks retardedly better at 2.4*AD and gives his AA more range.

Rengar W does no damage, but it gives Armor and Magic Res bonus, also heals him if Empowered, and that's the one thing that saves Rengar from being completely useless, since he has the worst Health Regen in the game. Kha'Zix Void Spike are harder to use, deal more damage, but serves as a AOE poke, stack better than Rengar poke (Spike at 0.9, Bola at 0.7) and heal him if he's in the blast radius.

This doesn't make Kha'Zix W better than two Rengar spells at once, I'm just saying that it's a better compromise between damage, poke and healing than Rengar W and E together.

Rengar E deals more damage than Q, and it also applies his only CC, this is just plain retarded. Forcing a poke spell to deal more damage than a damaging spell can't be right. For Rengar Q to deal equal damage as E, without considering atk spd bonus, you'd need a fully stacked Bloodthirster, and that would still put his E ahead of 70 physical damage.

Rengar ulti has no damn effect at all. It's a good tool for ganking, but it is NOT an escape button, because cast time goes up to 3 seconds when being attacked, and the movement speed bonus is irrelevant whereas Kha'Zix has 2 instantaneous escape button, one of which on a 22 to 14 seconds cooldown, and the other can be cast twice.

The only thing Rengar is better at? It's manaless. And his Bonetooth Necklace is somewhat good, if you can manage not to die, good luck with that. Kha'Zix can overcome the mana problem rushing a Manamune, which is a currently a jack of all trades, master of all AD casters items due to its passives.

Balancement suggestions ahead

Now, to buff Rengar without making him OP, this is the hardest part.

Rengar late game sucks. Rengar clean as jungler, where he belongs, sucks. Rengar escape sucks. Giving him a tool to overcome all of these problems would make him a faceroll champ again. I don't want that, we don't want that.
So here's how you buff Rengar.

[CENTER]First proposal[/CENTER]
[CENTER]Proper jungling[/CENTER]

Unseen Predator - Now slows the target hit by 20%.

Battle Roar - Additionally gives Rengar +5% Movement Speed, up to 15%, based on how many champs were hit (+2.5% per champ hit), Empowered version gives 10% bonus Movement Speed even when it doesn't hit anything, up to 20% based on champs hit (+2% per champ hit)

Thrill of the Hunt - Movement Speed bonus increased to 30% for all levels.

Bonetooth Necklace - Now passively grants 20 seconds cooldown reduction for ulti on kill and 10 seconds cooldown reduction for ulti on assist. Grants +2 bonus AD for every trophy (level 18, 0 trophies: 41 AD; level 18, 14 trophies: 69 AD).


[CENTER]Second proposal[/CENTER]
[CENTER]Better all around[/CENTER]

Unseen Predator - Deals additional physical damage based on Rengar level when attacking from a brush or stealthed. Level 1: +20; level 18: +100 (+0.2* bonus AD)

Savagery - Cooldown reduced from 8/7.5/7/6.5/6 to 8/7/6/5/4.

Battle Roar - Now stacks with AD, at 0.5* bonus AD

Thrill of the Hunt - Rengar stealths after 1 second, no other delay.

Bonetooth Necklace - Does not lose any trophy on death.

First proposal is obviously based around jungling and focuses on Rengar chasing abilities, additionally giving him more snowball possibilities. I believe this is much more balanced than second proposal.
Second proposal aims for a better Rengar all around, making him more of a threat in late game with Q cooldown reduction, giving him a reasonably good waveclear with W and his escape ability back. This is obviously built around laning phase as a top champ, with other AD casters in mind. Passive tweaks might seem OP, but it isn't any better than any other lane bully, like Riven, Darius or Kha'Zix itself.

Thoughts? Feel free to call me out on my bull****s, I just wish this thread to create a good discussion around Rengar.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Immagine.jpg (310.9 KB, 969 views)

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Arkblue

Senior Member

24-04-2013

Hi. I read the whole thread and I approve, I just want to point out the critical flaw in each proposal that would make him OP.

Jungle Rengar
The unseen predator on passive makes Rengar autoattack empowered with Q deal around 120 Physical damage each.
If someone enters a brush to fight with rengar it's like Rengar has a pickaxe as starting gear. It's extra damage that he doesn't really need.
Could be balanced as 5-23 scaling with level, but again, a good farmed rengar is already good by itself, if he is 2-3 level above.
The W spell shouldn't have weaker stats on empowered version.
A 25%movement speed boost in the middle of 5 enemies it's nothing, so make it 3% per champion it.
Rengar is already kitable compared to other bruisers.
The speed buff on Rank1 Thrill of the hunt is really low, it's hard to chase an enemy with boots , or with boots and zeal at rank2.
30% at all rank would be appropriate.
The btn seems fine.

All-Rounder Rengar
All fine , except the btn, it should still lose trophies on deaths.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PenguinOfD00m

Member

24-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkblue View Post
Hi. I read the whole thread and I approve, I just want to point out the critical flaw in each proposal that would make him OP.

Jungle Rengar
The unseen predator on passive makes Rengar autoattack empowered with Q deal around 120 Physical damage each.
If someone enters a brush to fight with rengar it's like Rengar has a pickaxe as starting gear. It's extra damage that he doesn't really need.
Could be balanced as 5-23 scaling with level, but again, a good farmed rengar is already good by itself, if he is 2-3 level above.
The W spell shouldn't have weaker stats on empowered version.
A 25%movement speed boost in the middle of 5 enemies it's nothing, so make it 3% per champion it.
Rengar is already kitable compared to other bruisers.
The speed buff on Rank1 Thrill of the hunt is really low, it's hard to chase an enemy with boots , or with boots and zeal at rank2.
30% at all rank would be appropriate.
The btn seems fine.

All-Rounder Rengar
All fine , except the btn, it should still lose trophies on deaths.
The passive boost in the second proposal is based around other champ that work as lane bullies and that have similar effect, the reason I'm proposing the buff is that his counterpart, Kha'zix, does the same thing, and also fairly better, with his passive.

Quote:
When Kha'Zix is not visible to the enemy team, he gains Unseen Threat. Unseen Threat causes his next basic attack against an enemy champion or Evolved Void Spike to deal 15 / 20 / 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 / 75 / 85 / 95 / 110 / 125 / 140 / 150 / 160 / 170 / 180 / 190 (+ 50% AP) bonus magic damage and slow by 25% for 2 seconds.
Riven passive is similar, kinda better for open fights.

Quote:
Riven's abilities charge her blade for 5 seconds, causing her to do 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 % of her total attack damage as bonus physical damage on her next basic attack. Riven can store up to 3 charges, and can only expend one at a time.
But the same can be said of almost every other champion that works as an assassin and that can top lane aswell. It's simply a shame that Rengar passive is so underpowered.

The reason for W spell scaling worse when empowered is that it gives the movement speed even when hitting nothing, thus being a small yet effective mean of running away from a gank or a failed initiate. I share your same concerns, but I'm unsure about giving it as much as 30% movement speed bonus.

Thanks for replying and taking your time.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PenguinOfD00m

Member

24-04-2013

Bamp, I guess.
Anyone?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Gaylen McFaggit

Senior Member

24-04-2013

tld;dr?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PenguinOfD00m

Member

24-04-2013

Quote:
Disregard the following text if you want to go straight for my balancement suggestions
Quote:
Balancement suggestions ahead
Just read the proposals.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eveleigh

Senior Member

24-04-2013

Nice post, I hope someone from Riot reads this and considers some of these suggestions, although I think they have already started to rework him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgUqmz8ca40
LOL, looks like Riot have been talking with the pro players about Rengar =)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PenguinOfD00m

Member

24-04-2013

Bumping for first page


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

venerdì

Senior Member

24-04-2013

I think the necklace should work as a reverse mejiai: 2 stacks x assist, 1 stack x kill; it's meant to be a jungler and they should make him better at that role.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Arkblue

Senior Member

24-04-2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUEgkZjrNac
I always link this video, is a guy that analysed Rengar thoroughly.
He raises good points.