I would like to see the Dota 2 Punishment system in LoL!

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Mrpriority

Member

01-12-2012

I've added this post. Will read it when I have the time for it. It's a tad long but that doesn't have top be a bad thing I do however just want to say:
Sir, I admire your consistent bumping! Bumping for so long, that deserves some praise at the very least. Keep shouting and eventually someone will hear. It's sadly the way the world works, but no less not shamefull to adjust to that. Good job Sir and keep it up.

I'm sorry if im vague, I just woke up ^^


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AngryKutu

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrpriority View Post
I've added this post. Will read it when I have the time for it. It's a tad long but that doesn't have top be a bad thing I do however just want to say:
Sir, I admire your consistent bumping! Bumping for so long, that deserves some praise at the very least. Keep shouting and eventually someone will hear. It's sadly the way the world works, but no less not shamefull to adjust to that. Good job Sir and keep it up.

I'm sorry if im vague, I just woke up ^^

Read it and you can share your opinions with us!


/Bumpa!!!


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Nethal

Member

01-12-2012

Take toxic players, mix them up with more toxic players. What do you get? A solution? I doubt it.


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Luckyio

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemmorhage View Post
Take toxic players, mix them up with more toxic players. What do you get? A solution? I doubt it.
Take a few toxic players, force them to play with bad players that can be reformed. Get results like those of US justice system, with highest rates of recidivism in the world and even those who could have been easily rehabilitated become career criminals.

Or go the path that riot took, which focuses on rehabilitation through carrot (honor system) and stick (personal warnings, personal bans) while keeping the players in the main player pool as much as possible to remind them that most of us behave quite a bit better.


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shootme02

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Senior Member

01-12-2012

bumpz


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AngryKutu

Senior Member

02-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemmorhage View Post
Take toxic players, mix them up with more toxic players. What do you get? A solution? I doubt it.

Honestly, I have explained this 3 billion times to other people. You can just go read what I said there.

@luckyo1
Exactly what I said above. I do not know about the US justice results, but there is an obvious difference in gravity between penalties for real life crimes and misbehaving online. As I said above, me and others supported that this can work. You can go some pages back to see a recent discussion concerning that issue.



/Bump!!!


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AngryKutu

Senior Member

02-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by shootme02 View Post
bumpz
Thanks for your bump!



/Bumpa!!!


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Luckyio

Senior Member

02-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryKutu View Post
@luckyo1
Exactly what I said above. I do not know about the US justice results, but there is an obvious difference in gravity between penalties for real life crimes and misbehaving online. As I said above, me and others supported that this can work. You can go some pages back to see a recent discussion concerning that issue.
My recommendation is to go to your nearest library and ask your librarian for books on criminology and relation of punishment to recidivism and rehabilitation.

What you do not seem to understand is that example I presented is linked not to length of punishment but to the base principles of punishment as related to human psyche.


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Riot Lyte

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

02-12-2012
4 of 12 Riot Posts

I've worked on low priority matchmaking systems in the past and it would not be suitable in League of Legends. RiotMontag stated a lot of the base arguments, but it basically comes down to what your goals are.

If your goal is to improve the behaviors of toxic players, then low priority matchmaking is generally a bad idea. For example, if we pair 10 toxic players in a game together--every single game--their behaviors actually never improve. It gets worse over time. This is counter to our goal of trying to improve the behaviors of the players and nudge them towards the neutral or positive.

Secondly, there's a weird psychological problem with low priority matchmaking. To use skill as an example, very few players believe it is their fault they lose a match or that their skill was the reason their team lost--it's human nature to try to find reasons that are external which is why we tend to blame others when our team loses. In low priority matchmaking, there are no Reform Cards or feedback loops. We know from psychology that ambiguous or confusing feedback can actually hurt the learning process and in this case make behaviors worse. Many players will not understand what about their behaviors led them to low priority matchmaking and these players will consistently face the worst behaviors in the game. They will begin wondering why they are there and how it isn't their fault. At this point, a large majority of players might prefer to just make new accounts and start over if they feel like they can't reasonably get out; as mentioned before, toxicity does breed toxicity so it actually is very difficult for players to get back out of low priority matchmaking. Now we've created a system that doesn't encourage reform and still funnels toxicity to low level players.

Is toxicity still a problem in League of Legends? Definitely. Is smurfing a problem in League of Legends? Yes. But we're working on these things and we are doing far better on both of these issues over the past 12 months. However, low priority matchmaking as suggested here isn't the right approach because our primary goal is to improve the behaviors of toxic players.

The player behavior team agrees that banning players isn't the right solution; however, it's currently a solution that is moderately effective and better than nothing. We're going to be trying some experiments that might completely change how game developers punish players in online games, but it isn't low priority matchmaking.


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AngryKutu

Senior Member

02-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Lyte View Post
I've worked on low priority matchmaking systems in the past and it would not be suitable in League of Legends. RiotMontag stated a lot of the base arguments, but it basically comes down to what your goals are.

(...)

The player behavior team agrees that banning players isn't the right solution; however, it's currently a solution that is moderately effective and better than nothing. We're going to be trying some experiments that might completely change how game developers punish players in online games, but it isn't low priority matchmaking.
First of all, thanks for approaching this thread, it means a lot.

Secondly, it is true that people tend to find excuses for their own mistakes and thus they cannot easily behave better. But the reason I had that idea comes from some mere observations.

First of all, I can humbly say that the Low Priority Matchmaking system in a rather raw form(instant LPM entry on abandoning game) has worked and turned over a huge part of the Dota 2 community. Me and others who have popped in this thread can clarify that from an endless racistic fest in 1 month the game became a lot more mild.

Of course comparison to League of Legends is hard and "blurry" I would say because of the different amounts of players that currently play the game.


On the more familiar side, I made this recommendation in comparison to League of Legend's current system. At the moment if someone behaves such so that he may gain a permaban, he will just create a smurf. He will also think that Riot is too harsh with him, or that Riots treats people who pay more better and a lot other silly things.
While not of course being the majority of cases, I see almost every day threads with people claiming their permabans were not deserved.


If you compare an LPM stay with a ban, what I personally see is that in the first case the person can actually chose whether to play or not so he doesn't lose important things he might have payed for. Of course one can smurf again but you can guess that if you put these cases side by side at least someone will prefer to play on LPM with his stuff rather than create a new account from scratch.
On the latter someone in this thread said he would prefer to do so.


Another thing that has come to my attention while doing Tribunal cases or playing games, are certain "trolls" that will flame and behave offensively no matter what happens on the game.
Even if you tell them to "fall back" they are eager to respond to you about insultive things and your mother, usually combined. Such people exist and I had the opportunity to see 2 of them in real life, playing League of Legends.

At the moment, only some minutes to create a new account stop them from going back to the game and being offensive again.

I understand the issues most people see, it is the only blasting drawback this system has. But from what I see in League of Legends, sooner or less, every player is exposed to such toxic players.

By claiming that toxicity breeds toxicity, currently, someone who never misbehaves might get matched with offensive people and end up being "toxic" too and getting punished. And I believe that an LPM system can reduce such cases.
The most common arguments are those that have to do with someone getting punished somewhat unjustfully and then getting matchmade with "toxic" players and becoming "toxic" himself.

On that matter all I want to say is that I do not believe that someone who doesn't normally misbehave and was wrongly punished would ever fall to the level of such trolls and become on himself. Again I have to remind you that these "toxic players that breed toxicity" are not limited by anything and roam free in League of Legends currently.

The LPM system encourages reform to the point whether you stop playing with these trolly people, under the circumstance that the person playing is not a volcano ready to explode on the first insult he will face. I still want to say that I find it more probable that a reasonable person who doesn't desereve to be "toxic" won't be so.


So not to become tiring, I can personally see that such a system can work on a certain scale and me and others who have shown their support to this suggestion by posting or upvoting or both, believe that a trial period wouldn't hurt anyone. I am of course open and somewhat eager for discussion on this topic.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

As for the goals you have stated about improving player behavior, I am of course not in place to claim that the current system doesn't work but I can merely obsereve as I mentioned a bit in the above part of my post that most of the toxic players throw the blame at Riot for their ban and continue being toxic in the environment with all the players inside.

And about the last part you said, not to become annoying but since I remember the banning system to exist on League of Legends from a long time ago, did these experiments show any success and could we expect such a new punishment system running in season 3?

As I stated on my first post, what I care about is the viability and longevity of this game that I see every day torn fiercely by people who not only play freely versus normal and new players but behave in a truly disrespectful way, something that makes me worry at least.