How can we improve Dominion's point system?

First Riot Post
12345 ... 8
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RiotNome

Game Designer

18-06-2012
1 of 5 Riot Posts

Hey folks, I wanted to grab some feedback for Dominion's personal score system (not the Nexus health). What can we do to improve it?

This thread will be mirrored across NA, EUW, and EUNE. Links to the other two threads are as follows. Any important updates or replies I make will be quoted in this thread for convenience.
NA: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2236364
EUNE: http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/boar....php?p=4546145

Quote:
I do see a lot of posters who question the necessity of the point system. While I agree that the point system as-is, or under any certain design, may not be perfectly indicative of a player's contribution to his team, I am quite adamant of its usefulness, particularly to new players. Why? Because unlike on the classic maps, there is no rolling track record of your contribution to the team. The goal is different; it's capture-and-hold, and as such, the traditional metrics for success don't apply. This is a big reason why you see this massive disparity between "public" and organized Dominion play; there's no clear-cut template for success, and most players aren't willing to make the jump from selfish behavior to team-oriented, team-forward tactics.

Does this mean that every time you use Revive, you should get 50 points, and every time you use Flash, you only get 1? Maybe it does. But the general idea is that the point system should give players a point of reference and positive reinforcement for being legitimately useful.
Quote:
About the underlying motivation behind player action in Dominion:

On Summoner's Rift, the win condition is to destroy the enemy Nexus.
On Dominion, the win condition is to bring your enemy's points down to 0.

On Summoner's Rift, the primary objective is to take down turrets and inhibitors.
On Dominion, the primary objective is to control capture points.

On both maps, champion kills are a secondary objective in that they clear the way to accomplish your primary objective. However, on Dominion, the value of the secondary objective is diminished due to a decreased ratio of active-to-passive rewards, modified spawn system, and proliferation of Summoner Revive.

Players new to Dominion fail to grasp this fact, but we run into a causation issue if we try to blame this on the point system, as the point system may either be the motivator OR the (ex post facto) justification behind the behavior. A rehaul to the point system that rewards positive actions more closely tied to the primary objective would hence attack the system as a motivator, and at least remove it as improper justification. For example, a good start would be to grant points for every enemy capture cancelled, then grant stacking points for additional captures within a short timeframe to emphasize the importance of capture over kill.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

smitske

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

18-06-2012

First thing would be to divide the paints gained when capping.
Now everyone gets 40 even if they just started channeling + this promotes things like capping a point with 3 and lose on another point, especially in the beginning. So IMO it would be better if capping a point gave xx points, to be divided among the players on how much they contribute, with a cap for every player (say the current 40 f.e.?)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Legit Korean

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

18-06-2012

Honestly?

The best thing you can do with the point system is just remove it entirely. The same should be done for K/D/A but I know you won't do it since half of your customer base enjoys drooling over it. This is a team game I don't understand why there's a need for individual scores when you should be encouraging people to work as a team and not be individualists.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Psyndia

Member

18-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chivalry Superst View Post
Honestly?

The best thing you can do with the point system is just remove it entirely. The same should be done for K/D/A but I know you won't do it since half of your customer base enjoys drooling over it. This is a team game I don't understand why there's a need for individual scores when you should be encouraging people to work as a team and not be individualists.
I kind of agree, but i would not remove the K/D/A-information.
The score system in Dominion has proven itself more than unreliable, but i guess that is the reason Nome asks us for feedback, to get it as informative and fitting to the game as possible.

A possibility is to give the whole team a score and not a per person score like it is now. Reward people for playing together...same points for assists as for kills etc.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RiotNome

Game Designer

18-06-2012
2 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chivalry Superst View Post
Honestly?

The best thing you can do with the point system is just remove it entirely. The same should be done for K/D/A but I know you won't do it since half of your customer base enjoys drooling over it. This is a team game I don't understand why there's a need for individual scores when you should be encouraging people to work as a team and not be individualists.
See the quoted text from the OP for why the point system is necessary. One important debate point that most experienced players forget is that not all players have bought into the system. If you have more than 30 games played, you've bought in. If you're reading this post right now, you've bought in. You're familiar with the game, are seeking to learn, and generally have the intent to continue. But not all players have done so, and this is an important demographic to catch. Imagine being a new player, either to League or to Dominion, and being thrown onto the Crystal Scar with no generalized sense of what to do. And even after a game, when you understand the win conditions, how do you understand strategy? Summoner's Rift is fairly self-explanatory; there are natural fronts created by the three lanes and clear map ownership dictated by turrets. Again, none of this is present on Dominion, where fronts are temporary and safety is dependent on current ownership.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

General Stormfox

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

18-06-2012

The idea smitske had up there with dividing points between all participators in a point capture is very good imho. Its basically similar to how kill rewards are distributed and would suit the playstyle well.

One of the major points (heh!) that should be adressed is the fact that right now, capping, losing, capping, losing, etc. a point gives a huge amount of extra points as compared to capping a point and then successfuly defending it for a long time. Perhaps the point defense radius could be extended a bit and the bonus stack up over time?

Similarly, the bonus for killing sprees can be toned down a bit to make it clear that the goal is not to rush after kills but to play tactically sound.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

19-06-2012

To try and stir and direct some conversation here, I'll repost some of the posts I've made on NA about this, the first is the most important - it's about changing the goal of the system, and working on from there:

1.

I actually began thinking about it 4-6 hours ago, funnily enough.

I don't exactly have concrete thoughts yet, since it's something that I still want to think about, but I've got one thing, it's less concrete and more direction:

The top Elo players do not need the point system. They need to win, and they'll do what will lead them to win.
The point system should be designed to teach good practices to new players, to help complete dominion newbies learn what they should do, and when, and how. Aim the point system towards teaching how to play Dominion, and if the losing team has more points (which happened to me before), then it's alright too.

2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolf Link View Post
TBH, just get rid of the Point System. Just use K/D/A and Neutralized and Captured Points. Since the 2 main goals of Dominion are capturing and killing the enemy, this clearly expresses your goals, and who on each team is doing what, and how successful they are.
Both of these goals are incorrect.

Your goal is to get the enemy Nexus to 0 before yours gets to 0.

Capping points is your main way of getting there.

Killing enemy champions is a stepping stone, nothing more. If you can neutralize their points and defend your own without scoring any kills? More power to you.

3.

Here's a hypothetical:

Give 0 points for capturing, perhaps even for neutralizing the bottom and mid points on your side. Just points for getting the enemy points.
Still give points for stopping an enemy from neutralizing or capturing your points.

Would this result in your team-mates actually capping your points less, and just running after the enemy? I suspect not, they'd just get rewarded less for losing. Or for doing things that need to be done anyway - but then again, if we make the point system about teaching the game, then nothing is too obvious.

So maybe just reduce the reward for the aforementioned play.

Now here's another thing, which you can see from some of the suggestion, and which I can tell you from my game-play. You often get points during hectic periods. Often, I don't even notice I get a point reward, or I don't notice for what I get the points, or how many I got for them.
This means that this should be better transmitted to the players, perhaps list it in a player's chat-history, or have a slightly longer fade time.

What most people see is just how many points they ended with.
So, how does everyone notice the Martyr points? Because after you die, you have time to sit and notice you got points, what for, and how many. So people do notice they get points for dying. Even if I don't think anyone dies on purpose for that

4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
So, are there any measurable actions that are conducive to the team?
There are, but they're all context related, so can be subverted.

Exhausting someone is always good, but exhausting someone with 1 hp and who's already exhausted? Not /as/ good.
Killing someone is always good, but if you die and throw the game? Etc.

There are plenty of actions that are good, but sometimes the cost is too high in the specific instance.
If you want actions, then you can still lean towards actions that are generally positive, once you remove the ones that would actually lead to a lot of toxic play.

For instance, awarding kills is sort of ok, but it'd be better to award kills and assists the same.

Stopping opponents from capping/neutralizing is good.
So is neutralizing, but aside from "multi-neutralizing", you can also find yahoos (can you?) who might let someone finish capture a point so they could neutralize it.

I think making more things give "Team wide bonus" over "personal bonus" might be good - that way 5 people won't cap a point when 1 can.
But this also requires you somehow convey the Dominion mechanics better to players. Players don't know that the speed growth is vastly non-linear on cappers beyond the first (I play co-op vs ai games, and some smurf games. The lack of knowledge is very bad).

Here's another thing, the more people that cap a point together? The more gold the team as a whole earns. This isn't actually conductive.
So aside from the points, maybe some of the gold mechanics for actions in Dominion could be looked at.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dominus Arts

Senior Member

19-06-2012

Just reduce a bit point gain on disable/capture node as well as on kill/assist near them.

To be honest point system doesn't matter right now. The main thing You should do is to find solution to make long queues shorter. Queue had been disrupting game since the moment Dominion came out. Even my friends who tried Dominion few times decided to stay with SR because even though they found Dominion fun, waiting 10 minutes or more for a game as a starter didn't make them happy at all. Secondly - items. In a way the gold is distributed it's very hard to get far behind. This is why many items from SR should be either removed or substituted with dominion types.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rhoda Issa

Senior Member

19-06-2012

The issue with the current scoring system comes from it being inaccurate on a fundamental level. There is no way to really know how a specific player aided his team in the current system.

This is just a thought experiment, but what if you could assign a 'momentum' to a player. Momentum is generated by various interactions: taking damage, dealing damage, being near a contested capture point, supporting allies, being in combat (i.e. being chased around the map would trigger momentum to build up) and other tasks. The one who did most of the job of killing an enemy will get the most points, not the one who got the kill. Momentum persists after death, but decays at a certain rate all the time, allowing a player to still get points for actions that happen within a player's 'influence radius' (combat near him or his corpse) or possibly even global range.

Now, momentum could be coupled to various objectives, all netting you points. Static background points, enemy Nexus damage, capture points neutralised, capture points captured and deaths (no kills/assists!). The more momentum you have, the more points you will get. The objectives that actually generate points can now be simplified to what really matters.

Using momentum, it means that there is no need to do specific actions that yield points (X points for a kill or X points for neutralising a capture point which are currently fairly randomly distributed). Momentum could potentially even be generated by stalling enemies by having them chase you down before you eventually die, something that would now give you no points at all.

It might not solve the current problem and scoring is a lot more complex than currently is. However, this complexity might result in more reliable scores because it's harder to manipulate them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sylian

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

19-06-2012

I would suggest that instead of using a point system for every game, you would simply create a Tutorial for Dominion. There are currently three guides relatively "famous" Dominion guides that I know of, one by Nekrogen (NA), one by Sauron (NA) and one by me (EUW). Many of the advice in these guides and perhaps other stuff as well could be used in a tutorial.

The points given for capping should be reduced. The reasoning is simple: At the moment, to many points are given for captures, which encourages newbies to 4-man cap a point. In many cases, it's better to just have one or two champions capture the point and have the rest do something else, perhaps go back and heal or defend another point or something. Also, the one who actually finishes the capture is, in many cases, not the one who did the most work on getting the capture in the first place. I suggest lowering it to around 20-25 points or so. Assists should be worth about as much as a capture. Someone assisting can, in many cases, help as much as the one channeling, perhaps by keeping the enemy away.

The martyr bonus should be removed. Newbies tend to suicide on points too much, and the martyr bonus encourages this. Sometimes it's good to suicide for the point, but in many cases it isn't. If the martyr was useful, he will usually gain kill assist points.

The "defending a turret" bonus should be removed. In many cases, just idly sitting by a point is not a good idea, and it would be better to push minions or gank bot lane or set up an ambush in the jungle.

The bonus for picking up a health pack should be removed. The hp and mana bonus is good enough. I do think you should make it more clear that the health packs give mana as well, many players don't know that.

I suggest increasing the bonus for minion kills from 2 to 3. This would give bot lane a boost while it would encourage pushing and farming a bit more. Many players underestimate the edge of farming, even killing just 10 creeps gives a decent edge, and it also pushes the lane. In Dominion, pushing is better than in Summoner's Rift in many cases, though players should still be vary of ganks.

I would say that K/D/A and minions slain would be better than the point system, though. It will be really hard to create a system where the scores won't either be trivial or encourage suboptimal behavior.


12345 ... 8